Teens on the Front Lines
— Posted by Eric (March 5, 2006 at 4:04 pm)
Yesterday over 200 pro-lifers from across the region gathered in Orland Park, Illinois to protest a new Planned Parenthood Express location on La Grange Road.Among those holding signs and praying were several teen groups.
I enjoyed meeting these young activists. Several of the older folks out there mentioned how encouraged they were by the teens’ remarkable energy and enthusiasm.
A Good Job for Teens
It was especially appropriate for teens to be out there yesterday, as the Planned Parenthood Express location is only about a mile from Carl Sandburg High School. That’s no coincidence. Planned Parenthood is targetting teens with their destructive propaganda and bogus birth control programs.
So here’s to the teens who came out for yesterday’s protest. The abortionists have reason to be worried about this new generation of pro-life activists!
Yesterday’s event was organized by Bill Beckman of Illinois Right to Life—great job, Bill!
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dee says:
i wish there were rallies near me i could attend im also a teenager and have a tremendous amount of energy for saving the unborn….. i live in england and there are no prolife street sessions for me to attend….i cant even find a prolife group let alone a teen prolife group lol….please keep up the good work you guys rock and are really making a difference!! xo
Comment posted March 7th, 2006 at 8:42 am
Tori says:
THATS ME!!! Hey, I’m Tori, I’m 2 over from the right! That day was awesome! We had such a good turn out! There had to be over 200 people there!And although we were flicked off several times by angry passer-byers, all the honks of support and thumbs ups were really encouraging. GO LINCOLN-WAY CENTRAL PRO-LIFE CLUB!!!
Comment posted March 7th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Phil says:
Excellent work!
Comment posted March 7th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
Lauren Patrizi says:
There are children dying in the Sudan as we speak. There are children dying in Iraq as we speak. In fact, there are children dying all over the world as we speak. Your priorities are extremely misguided. Your group is comprised of nothing more than hate. Hate for women, hate for common sense. If you think for a moment you are going to stop abortion through your methods, let me tell you, if anything it speaks volumes for the pro-choice movement. Let me propose a hypothetical to you. Let’s say you are in a science lab, and there sits a petri dish with an embryo and a two year old. A fire starts. You can save only one. Which do you save?
Please refer to this site http://www.naral.org/choice-action-center/take-action/prevention/
to learn about the prevention first campaign.
You look like an imbecile when you protest a birth control clinic. You look like you are for unintended pregnancy. Are you?
Comment posted March 8th, 2006 at 11:56 pm
Annie says:
Lauren,
Where do I start! I’ll address a few your issues and perhaps let someone else address the others.
“Your group is comprised of nothing more than hate. Hate for women, hate for common sense.”
Speaking from a holistic point of view, birth control, aimed almost exclusively at women, is detrimental to women. Why a woman would ever want to be ingest these poisons is beyond me. Why she would want to subject her body to these toxins in this day and age of women’s rights (there is no pill, shot, patch, ring, etc., for men) has always confused me.
“You look like an imbecile when you protest a birth control clinic. You look like you are for unintended pregnancy. Are you?”
There is something that everyone can agree is quite advantageous to a successful life - it’s called self control. We recognize the benefits of it in all areas of our lives, yet for some reason the pro-choice movement does not seem to encourage self control when it comes to sex. It is difficult at times, but is essential, especially when the cost (an untimely pregnancy, STDs, HIV/AIDS) is so high.
Comment posted March 9th, 2006 at 8:40 am
Eric says:
Sure, Lauren, the smiling teens in those pictures sure look like they’re teaming with hatred. Those seemingly joyful smiles are clearly but a mask over their bitterness and intolerance.
If you want to get a good look at hatefulness, you might try the nearest mirror. You’re the only one attacking anyone around here. I mean, really—you say we look like imbeciles, yet you show up and start accusing peaceful, respectful pro-lifers, who are in reality motivated by compassion for unborn babies and their mothers, of being hateful. How do you think that makes you look.
I think it’s unfortunate that so many abortion supporters are more interested in mocking and demonizing pro-lifers than in respectful dialog. I see this all the time, and I think it comes down to a basic unwillingness to face the reality of abortion for both the baby and the mother.
Take your reference to Sudan and Iraq. Why does the existence of injustice in one place require us to ignore the injustcie in another place, especially when that place is our own country, our own neighborhoods? Are you also railing against those working for justice in Sudan for not instead working for justice in Iraq? Are their values misguided too?
No, only our values are “misguided” because we care about unborn children, and are unwilling to deny a class of human beings their inherent right to life based on their developmental stage. (I’m really struggling here to grasp how the capacity to enlarge one’s compassion so as to embrace those at the earliest stages of life, who are most unrecognizably our kin, can be construed as “hate”.)
We also care about the mothers of these unborn children, and if you want to talk about what “speaks volumes,” it’s the pro-abortion movement’s unwillingness to face squarely how profoundly women are harmed by abortion.
As for your bizarre petri dish analogy, maybe you could explain exactly what it’s supposed to illustrate. I’m trying to figure out what the two-year-old and I are doing in this laboratory, and why I can’t manage to hold both him and the petri dish—or am I a one-armed man in this little scenario? I don’t get it.
Presumably it’s meant to illustrate that I don’t “really” think an embryo is a human being. How about this analogy: I have only one cupcake, and I’m in a “science lab” with the a embryo in vitro and a two-year-old. To whom should I give the cupcake?
Let’s try another one. Say I’m in a burning building. There are three children and I can only save two of them. It just so happens that two of the children are my own son and daughter, the other is the bully who has been tormenting them. Which two do I save?
Anyone might understand why I would try to save my own children, but does this really say anything at all about the humanity of that other child? Is he less of a child because he is not mine, or because he’s a bully? (For the record, I hope I’d choose instead to die trying to save all three children.)
Instead of attacking pro-lifers, trying to change the subject or avoiding the real issues with silly analogies, I invite you to consider the real meaning of death in the womb for both mother and child.
Comment posted March 9th, 2006 at 10:26 am
Lauren says:
Annie first.
Shame on me for thinking that someone else might live their life differently than you. Shame on me for thinking not everyone defines self control in a sexual connotation. Ingest poisons? You really are unhinged and are so completely out of the mainstream of this country. You should really go live in Saudi Arabia where women are lesser beings. That’s the world you live in. That’s not the America I want. The pro-choice movement encourages reality. Sex is a part of human nature and if you don’t like it, great that’s your choice!!! I love that you have that choice, but don’t you dare think that just you are all high and mighty because you don’t. What happens between me and my God is my business, not yours. It’s my choice, not yours. If you don’t like abortion, how’s this.. DONT HAVE ONE.
You are fighting a battle you will never win if you continue to fight it without common sense.
I’m assuming you are a right-wing Christian, arent you all lol, so let me ask you something? Are you aware that abortion was around during Jesus’s time? and are you also aware that Jesus was a pretty radical man and said some pretty radically amazing things (a liberal of his time)!! But do you know what he said on abortion? Oh that’s right nothing!!!! You’d think such a radical woudl comment on such a big issue. Turns out he didnt. He did however talk about war, peace, and poverty. Maybe you should focus your energy on making sure women are taken care of in this country before you start forcing them to have babies.
Comment posted March 9th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
Lauren says:
Oh eric, you silly silly man.
Their smiles are a clear reflection of the opiate their parents put them on. It must be easy to have an answer for the meaning of life and know for certain what happens when we die. Oh and it must also be peaceful to know when life begins and when it ends. have you ever questioned your faith? or did your parents like their parents likely shove it down their throats.. it might not hurt to regurgitate what you’ve been spoonfed all your life.
You have compassion for their mothers? Do you ever wonder how those signs make women feel? Do you ever think of compassion for them? No, you just want to revolt and disgust and upset people. You want to make abortion illegal don’t you? Well why don’t you just convince people that you are right rather than making it illegal? Why don’t you aim to take care of the women who end up pregnant, alone and scared? You should be ashamed of wasting the money that you did on those posters. That money should’ve gone to formula or a sweater for a baby. Such hypocrisy.
And no, I’m not an abortion supporter, I AM PRO CHOICE. I think what a woman does with her body is NONE of your BUSINESS. I think abortion is a tragedy and I have done many things to try to minimize abortion–including advocate for access to birth control if a teen seeks it and sex education that doesnt tell teens that condoms dont work. The moment you become out of touch with reality, which so much of the anti-choice crowd has, all of your arguments go down the drain. I’d love to meet you people halfway and work on this together. I just think that your crowd is so hateful, so nuts, and so unhinged it will be impossible.
I think the injustice in Sudan is much greater than whatever injustice you see in a woman choosing not to carry a miniscule zygote. These are breathing, living people that are being raped, tortured, malnourished, stabbed, shot, and massacred, and you’d rather save the egg!!! To me, it is a complete lack of priorities. The own country argument makes you look selfish. Martin Luther King once said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to injustice everywhere.” Look beyond the United States and look at the REAL tragedy occuring in our world. Last I check they are human beings, and they are God’s people just like you and I.
I’m not going to argue with you where life begins because it is an inane conversation and you are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you. But let me tell you something if you’ve voted for Bush. Keep voting for him. You’ll never end abortion. You’ll just keep voting away your rights. And before you know it, your job will be in India and your family will look like those poor souls in Africa. If you don’t believe me, just wait.
Oh yes, women are harmed by abortion, I agree with you entirely. I know this. But if you think your methods win over women who are pre-abort or post-abort you are so dead wrong. You alienate them with these posters. Trust me. I’ve got many girlfriends who have been in that place and think your whole movement is comprised of a bunch of unsympathetic women haters. Believe me, that’s what they think.
Cupcake? That didnt even make sense.. moving on.
The two children and the bully is a much harder dillema. The bully is actually a LIFE. However the embryo and the child one should not be difficult. You would be a moron to say embryo.
You would decide to try and die saving all three children. Which proves how hopeless your movement is. I would be part of the pro-life movement if it emphasized birth control and minimizing abortion unless absolutely necessary. Instead, I’ll stick with my fellow pro-choicers, which have their heads out of the sand and in reality. I’d rather be on the team that has practical solutions rather than ignorant nasty posters.
I have considered the meaning of “death in the womb.” It’s sad, now let’s fix it. Until your side wakes up and really wants to HELP women rather than confine them to a life with no opportunity, I will always fight against what I deem is no more nor no less than hatred. If you think I’m wrong, the majority of America is with me on this.
Comment posted March 9th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
Annie says:
Someone’s just a tad bit angry.
Comment posted March 9th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
Lauren says:
Women’s lives are at stake. Our rights are at stake. I should be angry.
Comment posted March 9th, 2006 at 8:37 pm
Eric says:
Lauren: “. . . unhinged . . . moron . . . out of touch with reality . . . hypocrisy . . . selfish . . . inane . . . so hateful, so nuts, and so unhinged . . .”
Uh, who’s being hateful again?
Lauren: “the majority of America is with me on this.”
Then why are you so upset? If you really believed that, you’d just laugh about a little fringe-group website like this, rather than, well, freaking out.
You know, Lauren, on one level I’d just as soon you and the other abortion supporters remain completely in the dark about what motivates pro-lifers. The less you understand us, the less effectively you’ll mobilize against us.
But on another level, I’d rather you know the truth. I guess that’s because I don’t want to write you off—as you seem to have written us off. For example, I’d like explain to you that in fact in my early twenties I left the Catholic faith I was raised with, that I came back to that faith ten years later.
Or that I know full well that they had abortion in ancient times, and that is was then as now a tool for subjugating women, and that the demographic crisis that abortion and contraception wrought was a major factor in the demise of the Roman Empire in the West.
I’d like to patiently explain to you that we don’t know everything that Jesus said—surely He said much more than we find in the Gospels— but that His immediate disciples—those who actually did hear all that he taught—did speak out against abortion and contraception, clearly drawing on what they received from Him. (BTW, what exactly do you imagine Jesus said about war?)
Yet—I know better than to think you’d listen to a hateful, unhinged, selfish, moronic, hypocritical nut like me. So go on thinking what you want about pro-lifers. Meanwhile, we’ll keep busy helping women choose life for their babies, converting America to the pro-life side, raising up a new generation of pro-lifer leaders and passing pro-life legislation for the day, coming soon, when Roe v. Wade is cast down.
Comment posted March 9th, 2006 at 11:06 pm
Lauren says:
Let me ask you something… who wrote the Bible?
and by the way, you took my comments out of their appropriate context. You called me PRO-abortion therefore defaming me. I am pro-choice, and there is a difference. I would never hope for a woman to have an abortion and faced with the decision I’m not sure I would choose that. But who the hell do you think you are telling women what they can and cannot do with their bodies? Will you ever carry a child?
Let me ask you, if Roe v. Wade is overturned, what do you think is going to happen? You think abortion will decrease. Ask any person who actually does research and doesnt use emotions to back up his/her claims, they claim that in fact abortion will spike up and that women will seek riskier and more developed abortions. For example you do know that women who are 17 1/2 that are pregnant are waiting til they turn 18 to abort their pregnancy. This certainly is a lot more dangerous to the mother and much more reprehensible in terms of development for what i believe is the child.
Do I think there should be regulation on abortion? YES! Because life is grey and not black and white
If roe is overturned there will be a backlash against you in this country, I promise. JUST wait. It’s already building post-south dakota. If you then move on to Griswold to take away a woman’s right to BC, you will become the most marginalized group in America. Democrats will win back their offices because let’s face it no one will have any reason to vote for bush anymore. YOu know that Bush uses pro-lifers for their vote. He then bombs other countries around the world, profits from war, and then uses hate to divide people. People cared more about two guys making out than the Iraq war or the exploitation of their Afghani people.
So let me say to all of you anti choicers… Keep driving your Excursions, keep destroying our enviornment because “global warming” is a myth, keep supporting war, keep putting flags and stickers on your car that were made in China, keep supporting the terrorism that’s going on in Saudi Arabia, you wont have anyone left to save because we’ll probably all be dead and the generations to follow us will be wearing nuclear gas masks on the street.
You people baffle me you really do.
Comment posted March 10th, 2006 at 12:22 pm
Eric says:
“Let me ask you something . . . who wrote the Bible?”
Dan Brown, I think.
“You called me PRO-abortion therefore defaming me. I am pro-choice, and there is a difference.”
As long as you insist on calling us by the ludicrous moniker “ant-choicers”—as if we abstractly oppose the very concept of making choices—I’m afraid I won’t be very sympathetic to your objection to being called “pro-abortion.”
“Choice” has no specific meaning—people make all kinds of choices, some good some bad. “Pro-choice” says nothing about the choice you’re talking about, which is the choice to abort an unborn child. It’s no surprise you’d want to hide the reality of abortion behind the euphemism of “choice,” but please don’t ask me to play such games.
And if the overturning of Roe v. Wade would lead to a backlash against pro-lifers, then you ought to be praying for Roe to be overturned, because right now we’re gaining ground in the courts, the legislatures and in popular opinion. Oh, sure, your average person has been trained by years of propaganda to think pro-life activists are a little wacky, but we don’t really care about that; we’re not in this to be popular. They get mad at us for dispalying graphic abortion signs, but those images stick with them and gradually support for abortion erodes.
As for South Dakota, last I checked their legislature is still elected by the people of that state. The people elected the representatives and governor who passed the anti-abortion law; presumably there is a great deal of popular support for such legislation in South Dakota. And Mississippi. And Texas. And Indiana. And Missouri.
BTW, what limits on abortion would you actually support?
And could you please explain how the overturning of Roe would increase abortion? Abortion rates are already declining as it is. Can you point to one single example of an activity that actually increased after being criminalized? Precisely the opposite is what happens.
Comment posted March 10th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
lauren says:
Is pro-life not a similar euphemism? To me, you’re not pro-life, you’re pro-birth. I find it baffling how many right-wingersso is pro-birthers are anti-welfare. Are you aware the number on recipient of welfare is single white mothers? Go ahead, pull those spoons out of the babies mouths.
You’re right, you are gaining in the courts. But so are the Enrons, the Halliburtons, and the people who are anti-human rights. Hitler won popular opinion in Germany for a short time. What is popular is not always right and what is right is not always popular.
Way to avoid the question on the Bible. Shows you can’t even defend your idiocy. You hide behind the Bible to defend your views. My attack on you has nothing to do with the Bible or Christianity, my attack is on your lizard-brained bigotry and hatred for womens’ rights.
Abortion rates have largely been going down because of places like PLANNED PARENTHOOD EXPRESS… People arent having sex less that’s for sure!
Trust me, the abortion signs do not win you popular opinion, you gain popular disgust. If you cannot have a discussion without those sorts of pictures, how can you accuse the pro-choice movement of propagandizing?
I do think abortion rates would go up, people would be having more clandestine and dangerous operations, but it would happen. You’d also see an increase in female suicide, crime (due to the seedy abortion operations), and some very scary medical results. Look you know you’re not going to end abortion by making it illegal. Why are you so uncomfortable in what you believe that you must force people to do it? If you are so against abortion, why not try to fix the system. Fix the fact that it is impossible to raise a child without large sums of money, fix the fact that it is culturally unacceptable to have a child when you’re not married, fix the system that once you have a child you throw away your dreams, fix the system by not forbidding birth control.
Seriously everything you say has no merit once you say no birth control too. I think those girls in that picture should never be allowed to use a condom, a birth control pill, or any other method of deciding when she wants to have children. Shame on them and shame on their parents.
You limit access to birth control, you are going to have a lot of unwanted pregnancies and hence a lot more abortions.
I’m glad I live in Illinois—an open-minded, tolerant, and great state. There is a reason why racist, anti-choice, mysoginist sentiments remain in places like South Dakota. They are filled with hate. There is a reason they voted for George W. Bush.
I love how you ignored everything I mentioned with our dear old president as well.
Don’t you think these protestors shoot themselves in the foot when they protest birth control too?!
Comment posted March 10th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
lauren says:
Regulation on abortion
1. All exceptions for rape and incest
2. 1st trimester abortions allowed
3. Limitations on abortion (not really sure how to enforce it, but people should not be using it as a birth control method and people that do that is wrong)
4. 2nd trimester abortions deserve a hearing but with strict regulation
5. 3rd trimester abortions restricted and not allowed
6. Life of mother or life of baby exceptions to all restrictions.
These are simply common sense and are reasonable. If there werent such radical pro-choicers who say free choice all the time and such radical anti-choicers who say no choice never, we might actually have a good conversation on this issue. Instead we have extremists and nothing gets done.
Comment posted March 10th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Eric says:
“Way to avoid the question on the Bible.”
Actually, I’m the one who asked the first question on the Bible, specifically, what does Jesus say about war? Instead of answering, you ask me who wrote the Bible.
But okay, I’ll humor you. Since we’re talking about Jesus, I’ll limit my answer to the New Testament. The New Testament was written by Saints Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter and James, with the book of Hebrews possibly having been written by a disciple of Paul. So what’s your point?
I love how you ignored everything I mentioned with our dear old president as well.
I ignore it because it is irrelevant. You say Bush is using us, I say we’re using him, but either way out mission here at Generations for Life is to fight abortion. We have no position on the War, or global warming, or SUVs; you only introduce these issues in an attempt to demonize us via “guilt by association.”
Hitler won popular opinion in Germany for a short time.
Godwin’s Law proved again.
Comment posted March 10th, 2006 at 4:01 pm
lauren says:
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. OMG, can I laugh some MORE HAHAHHAHAHHA…….. go research and then tell me again who the Bible was written by.
Comment posted March 10th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
lauren says:
You should be guilty by association, because he is USING you. You may think you are using him but you are a tool and before you know it, America will not be the America you grew up in.
But please tell me again who the Bible was written by. Crap, for a document i lived my life by I certainly would want to know who wrote it. Don’t feel bad, you’re in the majority of people who don’t realize this. Ask your priest who wrote the Bible, particularly the New Testament.
I will not be surprised that you will leave this discussion with the tail between your legs because you will be too embarrassed of your ignorance about something you believe so blindly in.
Comment posted March 10th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Eric says:
“[G]o research and then tell me again who the Bible was written by.”
I have researched this, but maybe it would be simpler if you just told me who you think wrote the books of the New Testament. (While you’re at it, biblical scholar that you are, you might finally get around to telling me what Jesus said about war.)
Comment posted March 10th, 2006 at 5:03 pm
Sydnie says:
Lauren,
I am amazed at how uniformed you are. You seem like an intelligent person, so why have you bought into planned parenthood’s lies. Did you know that Margaret Sanger ’s(PP founder) mission was to rid the world or “negros” and hispanics?
The “right” for a woman to kill the woman inside of her has hurt her so bad. Do you not know about how much it hurts the woman? 93% regret them? and many attempt suicide, and this is helping her? It has made her into a disposable object just as her beautiful human life inside of her. This causes men (some men, not all are like this) to treat women as if they are an object and they can leave her with no responsibilities, no relationship nothing! leave her broken and shattered!
Science has proven that not only does life begin at conception but also babies are made up of 50% mom, 50% dad. Does this give men the right to “choose” what happens to their baby? or should they be given the right to “choose” not to pay child support because he did not want the baby?
Bottom line, Planned Parenthood was founded on lies. So was Roe v. Wade. Just as Roe herself, she will tell you all about it. I will pray for you! I know you are an intelligent person. Hopefully someday you will see the truth.
Comment posted March 10th, 2006 at 5:53 pm
Lauren says:
Where are you getting this 93% statistic from? I know a lot of women who had abortions and have said to me personally it was a hard decision to make and they wish that they werent in a place to make it but that it was the best decision they could make. That must trouble you when women actually choose not to be pregnant.
Comment posted March 10th, 2006 at 11:57 pm
Lauren says:
I understand your point about Margaret Sanger. That’s wrong. But abortion was around before Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood does not exist today to exterminate African Americans. If you think that, you also are unhinged. None of you have yet to answer how we can work on this together. You’d rather women have no birth control and no access to abortion and let’s just hope they control themselves. Good luck to you on that idiocy.
Comment posted March 11th, 2006 at 12:02 am
Lauren says:
You got that idea (may not paying) from what’s been occurring in the news lately. That man should be punched in the face. It’s a very provocative idea legally, but I’m not scared to say I dont know what I think. Unlike some people who speak in absolutes and rush to make up their mind and speak in black and whites I take some time to think through things. blah blah blah…
Eric my dear friend… The gospels are ascribed to Matthew Mark Luke and John but certainly are not written by them. The only really authentic pieces in the bible are the letters by Paul. I believe it’s only three of the seven. I’m a student at Loyola and I took a new testament course a few semesters ago and was shocked out of all my years of CCD no one ever told me this. Paul also definitely did not write Hebrews, although it is often attributed to him.
On a side-note this is really a quite interesting topic and you should really look into reading about the writing in the Bible, from an academic standpoint, not a faith-based one. To try to explain to you how and when the gospels were first written is too difficult for me to do over a blog… I will tell you however that it was a long time til most were ever even written down. It was the sort of “telephone”/sit around the fire Bible before that. As you can imagine translating from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English etc was sort of a tricky thing to do. As well as preserving copies of copies of copies. It’s not so difficult to wonder if maybe something got mixed up or some moron spilled the ink one day when trying to write all that down.
I could talk about this all day from an academic standpoint because it is interesting to me. I just can’t stand it when people use the Bible as a shield when 90% of the stuff was written/passed down tens if not hundreds of years after Jesus died.
” Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God.” Matthew 5:9
Do not judge, lest you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be
judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Something we all could learn from!!
Something that could definitely apply to those people in this country that think wearing their religion on their sleeve makes them good people: Public Prayer & Displays of Faith: And when thou pray, thou shall not be as the hypocrites are: for
they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be
seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou pray, enter into
thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret…
Comment posted March 11th, 2006 at 12:19 am
Lucy says:
Self control is not the issue at hand if honesty prevails. The issue at hand is control over others. Those who wish a woman to have self control are with the individuals with the title Pro-Choice.
Pro-Choice is the side that is actually in favor of life. They are the side that understands that a womans right to choose is vital to her life. It is essential to her self esteem. To her ability to have a viable role in society. It is the side that understands that having an unwanted child can be a fate worse than death. It is the side that understands that to be an unwanted child is a fate worse than termination before life. It is the side that understands that if you give woman the right to choose her self esteem will rise. It is the understanding that if a woman has control over her life then she is less likely to have sex when she doesn’t want to. It is the understanding that this will lower the amount of abortions. This and available birth control.
This and giving those young girls in the picture above a safe place to go to ask about birth control when home isn’t where they can go. Telling those young girls that they can have self control, and that Sex is a natural and beautifl celebration of life that should be shared with someone special. Telling them that they should not be afraid or ashamed to ask about birth control. These are the things that will, and are lowering abortions.
God and his bible had 2000 years plus to lower the number of abortions obtained in the world. God didn’t do it. If that’s the goal than he’s fired, and so are all of his good little workers. Planned Parenthood and all of the others who have worked so hard to boost girls like the ones above self esteem, give choices, and allow women to understand that they could have real self control have been getting the job done if you stop and check the count.
Pro-Life fights for a pulse.
Pro-Choice defends life.
Comment posted March 11th, 2006 at 12:35 am
Sydnie says:
http://www.geocities.com/livefreecritique/modernfeminists.html Please take a look at this site to see how abortion has hurt women! it is a feminist site. I am amazed at your comments Lucy and Lauren, women have the right to choose! They can choose to abstain, they can choose to use birth control, but they cannot choose to end the life of another human being because they made a “mistake”! Why don;’t these options matter? Why is abortion the best option? Especially when it victimizes women. I know several people who have had abortions and have come crying to me about it. I NEVER tell them of the “wrong” they may have done but hug them back and let them know that God is a forgiving God. They regret it and said they would never do it again. I think they need a lot of compassion and understanding. You know, I don;t really blame them, but I blame people like you for trying to make it look like a great option, a womans “right” to decide that the human being inside of her does not deserve to live! Nothing makes that OK. It is NOT as if she does not have options. I already mentioned what a woman can do to prevent a pregnancy, or deal with one. By the way, I am 21 with 2 children. Had my first when I was 18 with a loser of a man under bad circumstances. I thought my daughter would “ruin” my life in the aspect of my dreams for college, finding a husband someday, etc. She brought my husband and I togehter when she was 4 months old. He is more wonderful then I ever dreamed I even deserved! We have since then been married and had a baby 9 months later. We plan on having 2 to 3 more children. and I am graduating from nursing school in May. I will be an RN. She made me more focused and saved my life! I would have been with that abusive man, on drugs, probably dead! But I wouldn;t let him hurt my baby! and I certainly wasn;t going to kill her! how was any of this her fault?! She has brought so much happiness to so many peoples lives. and you know what it is hard for my best friend to see her. She killed her baby that was due 6 weeks after mine. There is NOTHING i can do to comfort her either. It is devastating! I can;t take her pain away! I wish I could.
By the way, PP isn;t targeting the blacks and hispanics? Look at the geography! where are they located? And they have compassion for women? They why do they think it is rediculous for women to have to have counseling before an abortion? (this is from their site itself!) are they afraid she will change her mind? Do they know abortion is better for her? should they be given time to think about this situation? do they help the women afterward when tragedy strikes them and they ache for their baby that they killed? NO! after talking to former PP employees, they have said that they are taught to play on the woman’s weakness to get them to have the abortion. And this is compassionate? maybe you better look at PP a little more closely. They are all founded on lies! Just take a look at the description of an abortion. Do you know of any vacuum that is “gentle” let alone one that sucks a baby from your womb! By the way, their biggest argument is to help victims of incest and rape, less then 1% of abortions are because of this. They don;t ahve much to stand on except for lies!!and putting fear in you! and all of society! i would think twice before being an advocate for people like these!
Oh yeah and I was an “unwanted” child,. Thank God my mom was prolife. She thanks God for me everyday and regularly tells me how Good life has been with me, and how much better off she is. Her youngest was 14 and she was done having kids when I came along, or so she thought. She speaks at pro life conventions telling people of the horrible mistake she could have made. How many babies do you think are actually planned?
Comment posted March 11th, 2006 at 9:56 am
Lauren says:
Holla Lucy, Holla. Love that other intelligent women like you are out there =) Thanks for standing up against those that think women should go back to the good old days of back alley abortions!
Sydnie–good for you. I mean that earnestly. You had the strength adn will to carry your pregnancy to term and you must’ve wanted to keep that child given that you didnt put it up for adoption. But who are you to judge? Who are you to say what God would and wouldn’t be happy with? Maybe God thinks you’re being very judgemental by going on this little crusade you’re going on. Maybe he thinks I’m an ass. I dont know. And neither do you. Your side does not speak for God, Jesus, or any other deity. You speak for yourself.
You know people who have regretted their abortions, as do I. I also know people who have not regretted their abortions. That may be unfathomable to you, but believe me it is possible. They wouldnt tell you that naturally because they wouldnt want to be cursed and fried at the stake by you.
Planned parenthood stays in poor neighborhoods because that’s the only place where they are not zoned out. It’s coincidence and economics that keeps them in minority communities. It’s not some grand scheme or plan.
I go to planned Parenthood for my birth control and I regret nothing about it. The people there are kind, caring, and wonderful. They are doing work for women you couldn’t dream to do. Planned Parenthood is the reason women like us have the rights that we do. If you prefer to go back to the 1920s you can do that. I however, and I’m sure Lucy as well, prefer to hang out with women that have fought for our rights. I am ashamed to call myself a woman when I talk to people like you.
Comment posted March 11th, 2006 at 11:32 pm
Sydnie says:
As I am ashamed about calling myself a woman with women like you. And you are wrong. I speak for the unborn babies that are not given the chance to speak. What makes the woman inside less important? Who are we to decide who deserves to live? and no God COMMANDS “thou shalt not kill” I really hope you go to the website I listed so that you can see another perspective on how abortion has hurt women. I don;t even really have other words for you…I am just saddened, extremely saddened by your views. I just cannot understand how people can let planned parenthood get away with murder, not to mention be supported by people…I guess our world is just extremely corrupt…I have always been more of an optimist.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 12:01 am
Eric says:
Lauren quotes: “Do not judge, lest you too be judged.”
Oh, the irony is just too precious!
She who arrived on this blog hurling invective and denunciations is now invoking Matthew 7:1, and this moments after assuring us of the unreliability of scripture!
Lauren, I’m truly impressed. You are quite a specimen.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 12:32 am
Lauren says:
I came to this blog to tell you to stop judging. Ah the irony you are correct.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 12:48 am
Eric says:
Lucy writes: “Sex is a natural and beautiful celebration of life that should be shared with someone special.”
Lucy, it is precisely because we believe that sex is natural and beatiful and a profound gift to be shared with ones beloved that we oppose contraception, which is unnatural, ugly, and undermines the gift of self by placing conditions upon that gift that mutilate its very nature.
Lucy writes: “God and his bible had 2000 years plus to lower the number of abortions obtained in the world. God didn’t do it.”
Lucy, that is not true. First of all, the Church’s opposition to abortion and contraception is rooted in the Old Testament, which is a great deal more ancient than 2000 years. The Jewish scriptures are profoundly pro-natalist and in fact contraception and abortion were far less common among the Jews than among their pagan counterparts. (See Contraception by John T. Noonan, Jr.)
The prohibitions on abortion and contraception became explicit in the Early Church and ultimately saved Europe from the demographic crisis wrought by the anti-natalist tendencies of ancient Roman society that the Caesars were never able to reduce.
It is only post-Griswold that we see increasing pressure for legalized abortion and post-Roe that we see abortions per annum skyrocket to over one million. If contraception were really the solution to abortion, there would have been no need for Roe.
Our society has been awash in contraceptives for forty years, producing a crisis of single parenthood, family breakdown, divorce, sexually transmitted diseases, sexual exploitation and of course abortion.
That’s the real report card on contraception.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 12:49 am
Lauren says:
I’ve seen all the so called feminist ranting… Feminists for life.. give me a freaking break. I dont understand how people can give you a mic to speak at. Lol.. I came here angry. I came here pissed off. And I should be, it’s my choice and it’s not yours. It’s not YOUR god. and last I checked you dont own the patent on right and wrong.
No I am a human life, not a specimen. A specimen is what you defend. Life is what you hurt.
Corrupt? Do you know the definition of corruption? Corruption is secretive. There is nothing secretive about what is going on here. Women want control over their bodies and the right to decide when they want to be pregnant or not. If that is a concept you have difficulty understand read it again.
I’m not here to debate relativism with you, although admittedly it’s kinda fun.. I am here to ask you where we can meet each other halfway. Anyways hope to see ya’ll at the St. Pattys day parade where I will be parading against zygotes…JK, thought that might boil your blood a bit. Take it easy though I’ll buy you a green beer.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 12:54 am
Lauren says:
LMAO… pro-natalist.. weeee lol. Dude if we did everything that Bible said we’d be one, pardon my french, fucked up culture. Can you give me statistics to back up all your insane claims? Please give me unbiased studies as well. I dont want to hear a study Called Abortion Kills: A pro-life’s search for whatever facts they can dig up.
Are you really blaming contraception for societal ills? What’s next gay marriage killed the dinosaurs? Sexual exploitation is an age old profession and not something that poof came out of griswold.
You know what I love about so many anti-choicers; how many of them are complete hypocrites! So many of my friends that consider themselves “conservative Christians” go the the strip club the night after they “campaigned” against abortion. I’m not saying their isnt hypocrisy on my side iether.
Let me ask you this, do you believe the Bible ever condone slavery…
BTW Eric, you dodged my Biblical authorship questions quite nicely:)
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 1:00 am
Lauren says:
HYPOCRISY:
women can’t have abortion
women shouldnt have children out of wedlock
gay people no matter how desparate the child is for love and parents should not be allowed to adopt
women cant have birth control cuz that is just so naughty!
women who have abortions are such sinner!!! oowee
We never judge and we are so right on this issue because god told us so… through what an M&M or an oil stain on a piece of concrete (idolatry)
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 1:03 am
Lauren says:
btw, you people are still unhinged.. just thought I’d add that for effect.. this is fun I love this. =) You guys are just too cute.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 1:04 am
Lucy says:
First, Eric, I did not say that sex was a beautiful gift. I said that it was a celebration of life. Second I said 2000 years plus, meaning more than 2000 years, I could have said 2 nanoseconds plus and still have not needing correction. Unless you have an exact time frame this was just an excuse to cite the interpretation of the bible that suits this purpose. Contraception is what makes it possible for women to choose when and when not to have children. Abortion is a last resort for when that does not work. I see that for some reason you are convinced that waking up one morning and finding out you are pregnant is somehow guarenteed to be the greatest thing ever, but somehow when you are a woman who has other goals in life its just not.
There is a difference between actuall and recorded. Legality and lack of absolute fear, lead to women who are brave enough to sign their names, and the ability to obtain an abortion safely create a record. One could say that the amount of gay people in the world is higher than ever, which is likely true, the number of people in the world is higher than ever, relatively speaking however, what is being observed is the result of greater understanding and courage allowing more gay people to live openly. (I understand that the bible has something to say about that too, lets not today).
Sydnie, I think that you’ll back me up that one does not direct people to God for forgiveness when they feel they’ve done something ‘right’. I think you might want to hold off a moment on patting yourself on the back for not judging your friend. I think that it’s great that everything has worked out well for you. I am sorry that you had to have a baby to find out that that you were worth something. However, as much as it is not a baby’s fault that a woman ends up pregant, it is also not a baby’s job to save us, or love us, or give us meaning, or to entertain. (We don’t need to discuss how Jesus was a baby). We should not roll the die to see whether that is how it works out. That is not fair to the baby either. Not only did you not know what you were worth, but it sounds as though you still aren’t sure, you credit your child with your new found direction, which is wonderful, it isn’t easy I know, and I think it is great that you found it. You credit your child with attracting a man who apparently is worth your time, I’m glad you found a man who was worth your time. I think it is a lot to hang on a child though. Your child didn’t do it, you did. This is vital. We are the ones who are capable of thought that leads to alter our lives to ways that make it better. It can happen intentionally, it does not have to be a surprise.
No, I do not believe that all kept children were planned. I think that many are like you, a pleasant, yet unexpected, and unplanned surprise. Sometimes pleasant surprises occur, obviously you were one, though something obviously happened to you, I’m guessing you did not end up in the position that you were in by random choice. You made choices,and you made those for a reason. That’s not my business though.
I wasn’t speaking of unplanned children, I was speaking of unwanted children. I mean children that people have for reasons other than they want children, that just as you have credited your child with good things, credit theirs with their lives not working the way they wanted. These individuals retaliate against what they believe to be the sourse of their undesired position in life. The child then becomes a statistic who is either abused physically or emotionally, and generally suffers neglect. It isn’t rational to credit a child with the good or the bad in regards to effects on your life.
I am certain that there are women in mass that have made decisions either way that deeply regret their choice. People made decisions for all kinds of reasons, not all are based on objective thought. Nobody is arguing that abortion is a decision to be taken lightly, simply that it is a decision that must be made, and the discussion, as I noted earlier, is who gets to make it. It is that simple. It is a decision en masse, or the choice of an individual? Women have abortions for fear of the social stigma of being pregnant and single, though that is happily on the decline, (the stigma). It can’t be both ways, you cannot condemn a woman for having an abortion and being pregnant while not married. It isn’t rational, though….I don’t think it is supposed to be, that which is intended for control rarely is.
The people at Planned Parenthood do not have the responsibilty of giving a woman time to think about it. The assumption is that she can make her own decision, and that upon walking in she has made her decision. If she needs to speak with someone then it is her responsibility to seek that out. Planned Parenthood does provide information for women regarding preventive measures. This is why they are so insistent upon providing contraception. Their goal is also to lower the number of abortions by lowering the amount of women who end up with unwanted pregancies. (No Eric, this is not unnatural, this is a demonstration of women thinking, making a choice in how to live thier lives, I think that you’ll find that the brain is real, all natural, one hundred percent, and the ability to think and form rational conclusions is part of the package that can be used.)
While it would be foolish to state that all employees of all Planned Parenthoods are doing what they are supposed too, I can tell you that if you have run across instances where they are attempting to persuade women to have abortions you have run across a problem. Though it is a bit contradictory to first complain that they do not counsel and then to complain that they counsel the wrong thing. They can’t be Planned Parenthood and try to talk women out of abortion.
The pro-life side has the places that operate as though they are abortion clinics, only to have it exposed that they are intent to convince you that abortion is not the right thing to do. Planned Parenthood does not push abortion, they provide it. Any individual who is pushing abortion is as much an impediment to personal liberty as an ally of Pro-Life. By not counselling either way Planned Parenthood is a tool to ensure personal liberty.
Choice is the key. It is empowering of women. As I have lost track of the number of schools that have replaced sex educuation with abstinence preaching I think that it is vital that places such as Planned Parenthood exist for the utilization of teenagers not interested in living in the dark ages. These are places that they can find information that can help save them the grief of making any decision regarding an unplanned pregancy in the future. They can find out about contraception when there may be no other resource for the information. Why should they be deprived of information because it makes a certain segment of society uncomfortable.
If you were looking for Planned Parenthood to be a place that condemns abortion, or makes a decision for you, then you’ve got the wrong place. They are based on Choice, a womans ability to choose for themselves. You chose, others can as well. We simply won’t all choose the same thing.
Lauren, I’ll do it. I have had an abortion. I am grateful on a daily basis to the men and women who have made it possible for me to have had a safe and legal abortion. I am convinced that the body cannot tell the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage, and the difference is the stigma attached. The difference is how a woman is forced to deal with it. As long as women are afraid to hide the choice to have an abortion the longer we will face people who will tell us it is always a horrible thing. I was not in a position to take care of a child, and as I believe that it would have been my job to care for the child and not the other way around, I made a choice based on my abilities. I am now in school, studying Philosophy, Economics, which I will then take with me to Law School. I intend to come out of Law School with the intent of defending Personal Liberties, just like this one. I can’t speak for every woman who has ever or will ever make a decision. I can only tell you that I am a mark on the chalk board who does not regret it. I can’t change what that will make me to the Pro-lifers. I imagine that my pain and suffering would save me, be it the pain and suffering of having a child I didn’t want, or the pain and suffering of regret. It is pain and suffering I avoided. I view life differently. I view life as something that is to be cherished and enjoyed. In order to accomplish this we must be permitted to make decisions. All of our choices will not work out as we hoped. However, in the ability to make them and learn from them at least we will know we are alive.
Pro-Choice defends our right to think.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 5:11 am
sunnyday says:
Peace really does begin in the womb. If we don’t acknowledge the fact that a baby inside the womb is a human being who deserves the same respect as born people do, what stops us from killing each other?
When a person sees unborn children as burdens or disposable things, that person is robbed of peace of mind.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 5:56 am
Sydnie says:
Sunnyday that is perfect! what a beautiful thing to say! Eric you are so strong keep up the good work!
Lauren, this morning I was thinking I was going to send a message saying thank you for a nice civil debate and say we need to agree to disagree and thank you for the experience, however looks like you became a bit angry…so I will say that to Lucy who from what I have read has kept her cool….And I have to say yes my daughter did same me. I do believe in miracles along with that everything happens for a reason, though we don’t understand it… I can;t imagine how you guys can think that an unborn baby is a disposable piece of property…Or that we have the right to JUDGE who gets to live and who doesnt?
let me tell you about a story of a woman I love, my sister. She was married with 2 children and one on the way. Her husband who forces sex on her every night and is controlling and emotionally abusive. He told her he would leave her if she didn;t kill the baby. She is the sweetest gentlest person in the world, but not very strong, and so deeply in love with this man that she chose him over the baby. On the table in PP she was getting meds and sat up and screamed NO!! the dr pushed her back down and screamed ITS TOO LATE!! It has been 10 years now and she still hears those words and agonizes over that baby. For the first 5 years she would lock herself in the bathroom and cry and cry. She was on antidepressants, it has been a terrible time. She still won;t forgive herself no matter what we say to her. My mom wrote a poem to her that she reads at prolife conventions to give her healing (doesn;t say who the woman is) it is called little baby never born. Abortions have not helped women!!
may I remind you again how women can think…they can CHOOSE ABSTINENCE! they can CHOOSE BIRTH CONTROL…they can CHOOSE ADOPTION. They should not be allowed to CHOOSE MURDER. I don;t know why you can;t get that through your head! it is NOT AS IF WE DO NOT HAVE OPTIONS! though i do not believe in contraceptives for me…other people may use them…that is where I am not to judge… I beleive that 80% of our country’s problems would end if people would stop having sex outside of marriage. I know you will mention the “accidental” pregnancies, well not the baby’s fault, she or he does not deserve to die!
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 8:59 am
Sydnie says:
“Abortion is the destruction of human life and energy that does nothing to eradicate the very real underlying problems of women. The pregnant welfare mother begs for decent housing, a decent job and child-care or respect for her child-nurturing work. Instead, she gets directions to the local abortion clinic and is told to take care of ‘her problem.’ How convenient. Much less time and trouble than teaching her about authentic reproductive freedom and reproductive responsibility. Much cheaper than attending to her real problems: her poverty, her lack of skills, her illiteracy, her loneliness, her bitterness about her entrapment, her self-contempt, her vulnerability. After the abortion these problems will all be there and another one added besides: her guilt.
“By encouraging society to consider a woman’s child as a disposable piece of property, abortion reinforces the image of woman herself as disposable property and reusable sex object-a renewable sexual resource. It is no coincidence that the biggest single financial contributor to the cause of ‘abortion rights’ is the Playboy Foundation. When abortion is available to all women, all male responsibility for fertility control has been removed. A man need only offer a woman money for an abortion and that’s it: no responsibility, no relationship, no commitment. And there we are… recycled and used again!” –Cecilia Voss Koch
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:00 am
Lucy says:
It’s very cute and poetic, but would you please explain on what grounds you presume to declare the state of mind held my anyone but yourself?
I think that it is tragic when a woman is denied her basic rights to choose for herself. I think that it is tragic when a woman becomes nothing more than an incubator for the satisfaction of people who confuse life with existance.
Oh, and because a fetus inside a womb is a potential human being. The woman it is residing in is the actual human being. Only actual human beings have rights.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:09 am
Sydnie says:
a woman needs
lOVE not abortion! just think about what i wrote! It is not about you or me being right…this is about the unborn who do not have the right to speak!
By the way, Lucy I am sorry for you loss somehow I missed that and congrats on persuing your education…you know pregnancy lasts for 9 months to prepare a woman for this baby, you grow to love this child unconditionally ready or not! That is why there is not sex and then a baby, I think a very small percentage if any, of women are actually “ready”. YOu may think you are but it is a huge responsibility. By the way, my brother in law is an lawer near washington DC. He had a child with my “sister at the age of 19. (this is a different one) He in NO way EVER was against this baby. His education took him a little longer but it paid off now! He wouldn’t regret his dicision to keep his son for anything! They have raised 3 wonderful children and now have a beautiful life, ( although I think my sister is changing because of the money) but he is not! He is a WONDERFUL man with a lot of strength. You seem like a strong woman…what makes you think you could not have cared for this child as well?
byw I am only even talking about it because you say it doesn;t bother you so I assume we can talk about it…if you were regretful I would leave it at that and offer my support. ..if i offended you my apologies!
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:12 am
Lucy says:
Only actual human beings are capable of thought. Only actual human beings are dependant on thought.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:13 am
Lucy says:
I don’t take offense at all. I don’t mind talking about it at all. I have no regrets. I’m afraid at this point I have to leave for work. I’ll respond later though. I’m obviously on here though, and I didn’t want you to think I was ignoring you.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:16 am
Sydnie says:
I think it is tragic when a baby becomes nothing more then a BALL of TISSUE? that doesn;t make sense I work in the newborn nursery and daily see the miracles of life….I guess you gave yours up….besides we are not their teachers…they teach us…you may not understand that if you dont have children. SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THAT LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION> thinking it does not shows that you buy one of the biggest lies of PP. again you have forgotten the choices women do have…..
equal rights for unborn women!
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:17 am
Sydnie says:
have a great day…my kiddos are up so I have to go too! thanks for the consideration!
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:18 am
Sydnie says:
If women must submit to abortion to preserve their lifestyle or career, their economic social status, they are pandering to a system devised and run by men for male convenience. Of all things which are done to women to fit them into a society dominated by men, abortion is the most violent invasion of their physical and psychic integrity. It is a deeper and more destructive assault than rape…. Accepting short-term solutions like abortion only delays the implementation of real reforms like decent maternity and paternity leaves, job protection, high-quality child care, community responsibility for dependent people of all ages, and recognition of the economic contribution of child-minders.” –Daphne de Jong
“How quickly a ‘woman’s right to choose’ comes to serve a ‘man’s right to use.’” –Juli Loesch
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:19 am
Sydnie says:
no offense eric…btw if you are striving for men and women to be equal then why shouldn;t men be given the right to choose as well? if a woman keeps a baby shouldn;t he be able to choose not to pay child support? I don;t think this is more extreme then being able to kill your baby!
or do we just have different functions. I am sorry that you are burdened by what makes you a woman. That is how we were designed, if you want to call your womb an “incubator” then I guess you are ashamed of your beautiful womanhood.
ok dad needs me to nurse my baby
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:23 am
Lauren says:
Lucy. You are a fantastic woman and thank you for your courage and it is inspiring. Unfortunately many of the people on this site are living in fairy land. I too have to some degree learned to ignore them. If they knew how hurtful and mean some of the things they say are. They think we’re mean? Please. Do you think anyone of Sydnie’s friends would actually tell them that they didn’t regret their abortion? No, because they would get judged, smacked in the face with the Bible, and then lectured to death about when life does and doesnt begin.
The truth is one in four of us will have an abortion by the time we’re 40. This is a tragedy. This is a tragedy for women. We deserve our access to birth control, legally and affordably. This includes education as well. We deserve to have a choice over our bodies as it is fundamental to our freedom. Without that choice we are merely vessels.
And Sydnie, it is not your place to lecture Lucy on her abortion. If it were not for women like her, women like you would not be allowed to talk. We preserve our freedoms so people like you can hope that they are taken away. It’s quite ironic indeed.
I too hope for a future for myself and a future that gives me choice.
We fight for just relationships of power Lucy, we fight for rights, we fight for the well-being of women. They fight for zygotes. Never let yourself forget that.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:29 am
Lauren says:
Sunnyday weeeee peace begins inside the womb? What on earth does that mean? That is the fluffiest weirdest statement I’ve ever heard.
Gay marriage killed the dinosaurs!
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:31 am
Lauren says:
I think it is tragic when a baby becomes nothing more then a BALL of TISSUE?
that doesn;t make sense I work in the newborn nursery and daily see the miracles of life….I guess you gave yours up….besides we are not their teachers…they teach us…you may not understand that if you dont have children. SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THAT LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION> thinking it does not shows that you buy one of the biggest lies of PP. again you have forgotten the choices women do have…..
equal rights for unborn women!
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:34 am
Lauren says:
“I think it is tragic when a baby becomes nothing more then a BALL of TISSUE?”
Why is this so hard for you to fathom? Did you take an elementary science class. Oh wait, the world is flat, evolution does not exist, and the earth was formed in three days. Nevermind.
“that doesn;t make sense I work in the newborn nursery and daily see the miracles of life….”
Since when are newborns clumps of cells? Did I miss something?
“SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THAT LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION”
what is your point? and who mandated this study that came to this conclusion? Illinois Right to Life?? Lol. Would you not say sperm are alive? My boyfriend then must kill a lot of living beings in a given week. What does this crap mean about life at conception? Do the heavens come falling down and crazy chuch music come reverberating through a woman’s belly. No sperm meets egg and there is an opportunity to have a baby. If you dont see the difference between an 1 week old zygote and a bouncing baby you aren’t looking hard enough.. In this case you’d actually have to be looking through a microscope to see the first. Well it certainly is cheaper in diapers and cradle etc.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:40 am
Lauren says:
btw I’ve been to a few PP locations and never have they been run by men. However the politicians interested in taking away my rights happen to be men.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 9:41 am
Christina says:
Lauren, you sound like you’ve really given this a lot of thought and tried to arrive at a stand based on what you’ve learned and not just on what different organizations are saying.
I know it’s tough for me to say where I stand on the death penalty. Am I for it, but only in very limited circumstances? Or am I against it, except for very limited circumstances? I don’t fit in a pro or con camp.
I’m trying to get folks like you to connect to each other. L, Zygote, and achromic frequent my blog (click on my link), and I think in them you might find kindred spirits. Please come and contribute to the discussion there, and get hooked up with L and the others.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 10:19 am
Sydnie says:
Lauren I will respond to you later…I think you have missed a lot of points like CONCEPTION and life beginning then. Take a look at science books and no I am not from IL I am proud to say I am from SD!! I am proud of my state and if you knew me you would know I am not a big bible thumper at all, I wish I was. I do believe in evolution just for the record! I do believe God instigated it. It makes perfect sense to me that we evolved. and the tissue comes from lucy’s comment about how unimportant the fetus is. May I remind you that you are a former fetus, and you mother could have chosen to end your life in which you would not have the right to choose to have sex outside of marriage.
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 11:12 am
Eric says:
Lauren writes: “BTW Eric, you dodged my Biblical authorship questions quite nicely.”
Yeah, well I’m still waiting to hear from you what Jesus said about war. And aren’t really asking questions about biblical authorship, you’re making pronouncements about it on the basis of the one new testament class you took.
You accuse us of looking at issues in terms of black and white, and yet that’s precisely what you’re doing on the question of who wrote the books of the New Testament. Nevermind the decades of debate, the disputes and differing schools of thought, not to mention the various biases and agendas—on both sides—that are brought to the question. No, because your teacher in your one undergraduate class declared that it’s “certain” we don’t know who wrote most of those books, why, it must be so.
I don’t buy your professor’s take on this, Lauren, and believe it or not I have studied this, both from the perspective of a commited apostate and from the perspective of devout Catholic. My judgment is that in general the traditional attributions of the books of the New Testament are valid; if we really “don’t know” if Luke the disciple of Paul wrote the Gospel According to Saint Luke, neither do we “know” that he didn’t; and it is fallacious to believe that traditions are false merely because they are traditions.
I already linked to Luke Timothy Johnson’s book; you ought to read it—it’s just a thin little thing. Johnson is considered by many a rather liberal theologian (he favors contraception, for example, and has written in opposition of John Paul II’s teachings on the nuptial meaning of the body). But in The Real Jesus : The Misguided Quest for the Historical Jesus and the Truth of the Traditional Gospels, LTJ decimates a lot of the ideas you appear to have bought wholesale in that class you took.
But I am not particularly troubled whether the Gospel of Luke was written by the selfsame Luke who was a disciple of Paul, or by one of Luke’s own disciples faithfully making an account of what he learned from Luke. Likewise for Mark, etc.
Whether literally written down by the disciples whose names are on them or dictated to others, or written down later by the disciples of those men, these books are an authentic account of what Jesus did and said. I see no reason to believe otherwise. Clearly there was a man named Jesus who said and did some things, and who gathered around him men and women who believed that he was the Messiah, and who immediately after Jesus’ time among them, began to spread the news of his words and deeds far and wide.
He said and did things they considered it crucial to share with others. The idea that they would be careless about the accuracy of their account comports neither with the situation itself—how seriously the took the charge to spread this message—nor the oral culture of that time. These were people trained from childhood to faithfully memorize the words of the Law and the Prophets. It is hard for us to imagine the capacity for memorization—and the need for it—in a time before widespread literacy, cheap paper, the printing press and, now, the Internet. Simply put, they were better listeners than we are, and better at retaining what they heard.
Jesus could not have chosen a better time to walk among a people recounting his sayings and parables (both forms which lend themselves to easy memorization), confident that they would be remembered and passed on. So your “telephone” analogy doesn’t fit in the slightest. These people considered the message crucial and they were ideally suited to pass it on. Which they did.
Now, you can disagree with my perspective on this if you want, but please drop the patronizing tone. You aren’t an expert on the New Testament on the basis of having taken a single class, nor, you ought to admit, am I an ignoramous on the basis of being a Catholic (this, it seems, is your only criterion: if one is a believer, one is ipso facto an ignoramus, and knows nothing of the Certain Truths that you learned in that one class of yours).
Okay?
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Sunnyday says:
“Oh, and because a fetus inside a womb is a potential human being. The woman it is residing in is the actual human being. Only actual human beings have rights.”
Thanks for pointing this out. That the creature inside the mother’s womb is a “potential human being” is one of the major misconceptions going around for decades. I’m not sure who started it but I imagine it became acceptable the same way that people started denying that life starts at conception when the courts were successful in changing it to “life starts at implantation.” Any honest scientist who knows his business knows that a fertilized egg, even before 48 hours after conception, already has the DNA that makes him a human being — 23 chromosomes from each of the parents. These constitute an individual person.
And I think it was Lucy who said it (sorry, but there are so many comments that it’s getting confusing) but a mother is more than a mere incubator when a human being is growing inside her. If a mother thinks of herself that way, it’s too bad. She should understand her worth more than that.
One last thing: everybody wants to be free, right? But freedom is more than the ability to do whatever we want to do. It’s choosing the good without being coerced to do so. Can choosing to kill (read: a deliberate act) your own flesh and blood be anything good?
Hello Sydnie, Eric and everyone else in the blog!
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Sydnie says:
Right on Sunnydays!
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Sunnyday says:
Oh, I noticed just now that Lauren addressed one of her comments to what I said about peace starting in the womb. It’s something like this –
The womb USED TO BE the safest place in the world. Everything that the growing person needs to survive is in there, and essentially he/she is protected from the things that we in the “outside world” are exposed to, and here i’m referring more to transgressions of the law such as murder, rape, theft — any form of assault and violence. Also, nurturing and caring are innate tendencies in women (MORE pronounced than in men, in case some man reading this misinterprets my statement) so that in most cases, the mother is careful about what she ingests or the activities she engages in since she knows these have an effect on her child.
I said up there that the womb USED TO BE the safest place because now, being a baby inside a woman is not that safe anymore. Due to factors I tackled in my previous comment, unborn children are regarded by some as disposable things or mere pieces of tissue and not as the human beings they are.
If what has been been a peaceful place can now be violated; if innocent lives such as unborn babies can be seen as “ok” to be killed; if peace is lost in this realm, what hope do we have of attaining peace in our world where criminals abound? We don’t even respect an innocent baby and we don’t respect the women who nurture them for months…then how do we expect to attain peace in this noisy, crime-filled world where criminals abound?
Comment posted March 12th, 2006 at 8:19 pm
Lucy says:
Sunnyday, you have dodged the question. On what grounds do you presume to tell me or anyone else the conditions of anyones mind but your own. The womb safe? I suspect you do not actually believe that every fetus is carried to term without abortion entering the picture. (Yes, I understand that this is not what you speak of, It’s simply a demonstration that other things do occur, we are not discussing a Utopia here). I suspect you do not actually believe that the womb in and of itself is the source of all of the neccessities that the fetus recieves. I suspect you thought about the implications that a fetus in the womb has an active mind filled with thoughts and considerations, where more than base reactions to outside stimuli are active. I’m sorry that you see the world as such a hopeless place, though I can’t help but wonder how it is you feel that bringing an innocent child into such a disgusting environment could be an act of kindness. Of course if the world has disintegrated into the mess that you have described, which to a degree of course it has, it is only because people have not been left alone and allowed to be responsible for their own existence,(and choose whether to make it a life). I agree entirely with you that freedom does not mean being able to run amuck and do whatever we choose absolutely. Freedom means making our own choices, and suffering the consequences, be they good or bad. Their are obvious examples for how this works, one is free to jump out of an airplane without a parachute, one will suffer the consequences. The understanding of this forces us to think and become more informed or suffer the consequences.
Sydnie, Planned Parenthood doesn’t speak for me. I appreciate the services they provide and the options they give, however, I also believe that they need to watched carefully less they simply become the other side of the coin. As I stated, pushing abortion is as much an impediment to free choice as is denying them. This is why I feel that it is acceptable that they do not give counseling, what kind of counseling would you have them give? It wouldn’t be fair to expect them to counsel against abortion, nor would it be right for them to counsel in favor of. No matter what choice is made the individual who must always live with the choice they have made is the individual who made the choice, I understand that this is usually understood to be the woman, but I’ll think you’ll agree that the father would also be affected by the decision. The only person who should make the choice is the person who will endure the consequences.
Sydnie, I’m sorry about your sister, as I stated earlier, if such things are occuring at Planned Parenthoods, or any other locations that provide abortions, then they are wrong. They are horribly, and unjustifiably wrong. That is not in the name of choice and is not condoned. The doctor in question should have been reported to the proper authorities. A patient requiring their appendix out would have the right to choose to decline, a woman seeking an abortion would certainly retain the right to change her mind. I can’t concieve of it, but then it doesn’t mean that their aren’t people who don’t understand the limitiations. It also sounds as though your sister had been coerced into taking an action that didn’t match her choice prior to arriving at planned parenthood. The initial villan here is her husband. The abuse that she was suffering would not have led her to a position where she could make a healthy decision, meaning the one that was right to her. I think that you’ll also grant me that this was sex within a marriage, indicating that sex outside of marriage may not be the contributing factor it is credited with.
As I stated earlier, I don’t mind discussing it, it gives me the opportunity to think about things on a different level. Understand better my position, and understand yours. I appreciate the opportunity, and have no reason to be angry. I do understand however what would cause Lauren to become angry. It is the thought that someone else is going to control her and prevent her from making her own decisions, (I suspect, I don’t mean to speak for you Lauren, I’m just guessing). It would anger me as well if I believed it were possible. I don’t. It’s interesting that you are from South Dakota, there’s been an uproar about it. Of course there was only one clinic operating in South Dakota, and fear had inspired that it would be run by staffing from neighboring states. Planned Parenthood and other choice locations are gearing up to fight them, which I believe would be a collosal mistake. The decisions reached in South Dakota are amongst the primary reasons that I am amazed that the doctors have not thrown up their hands and said forget it to both sides. Afterall, I don’t know how to perform an abortion. Though, when abortions are illegal it does not prevent women from obtaining them and dying in the process. The amount of lives that legalized abortion has saved is likely incalcuable.
If the ‘rights’ of the fetus to exist are greater than the rights of the woman to think then what else can I imagine her to be but an incubator. When religion and government are legislating her mind and controlling her body then it is not she that has reduced her value, but they. For nine months, she will be a servant to an eventual child who she does not want to whom she will be a servant to for the next 18 plus years. Even with child support laws on the books it doesn’t guarentee that a father will pay child support. Nor does it guarentee that the father will make enough to support the child.
I think I appreciate the fact that at very least you are not in favor of coerced child birth, while opposed to government aid, but I think there are better solutions. I understand that the saying is that it takes a village to raise a child, but I think that if one expects the village to raise a child then they best consult with the village first regarding their willingness and ability. I for one am neither willing nor able. I understand that this likely sounds cruel, but please recall, I am opposed to coerced morality, and do not consider forcing the members of society to pay for children without their consent to be moral. I’m sure your kids are great, but do you really believe that I should be forced to feed them. This is what you are calling for above. The government has no money. It is flat out broke. I am not speaking of the mindboggling deficit that the current administration is leaving behind for generations to come, I am speaking of the fact that every cent they spend comes out of the pockets of hard working members of society. This means that this is where the money comes from for every social program, welfare, government sponsored what have you, it isn’t theres. The government doesn’t have any money. It is a fallacy that our government is amongst the wealthiest in the world. In fact they are the most impoverished of all. It is we, that they represent, that are amongst the wealthiest in the world, as a group. This does not mean the wealthiest must pay for the poorest. They should not be forced to pay for an unwanted child either.
I didn’t make my choice to pander to men. It will be found that I do little to nothing to pander to men. In fact, I am amazed, it would have been my assumption that the majority of women who support the right to choose were some of the most determined feminists in existance. Women who would argue that the sky was plaid if it would go against the word of a man, not that I’m that extreme, but I’ve met them. In fact, I don’t really consider myself a feminist. I think that feminism calls for rights based on being women, I call for no denial of rights based on womanhood. There is a difference.
I have to go now.
Lauren, thank you for the compliment. I think you seem very strong as well. I couldn’t forget if I tried. Remember the Spanish Inquisition. Jewish people were forced to deny their faith, they did so in public to satisfy the violent whims of the church, in private they kept their traditions to the best of their abilities.
Comment posted March 13th, 2006 at 5:58 am
Sydnie says:
I still don’t understand why you have forgotten women’s rights. Contraceptives, abstinence, adoption. She can choose what to do with her body. You speak of “suffering” the consequences. Killing a baby is not that at all. Once a woman creates a beautiful life in her womb, she no longer should have a choice because she has another body inside of her. And yeah, my sister is in a very bad position. Acttually sex outside of marriage was the cause of their marriage, and he had another child with another woman druing their marriage. Let me get this straight. You support a woman’s right to CHOOSE but if she CHOOSES life you dont agree with her choosing to leep her baby and refuse to help her because money is more important than this woman and her child! HIPOCRACY! the counseling i speak of is pp is against prior couinseling. what’s the big deal afraid she may change her mind? Not to mention afterwards they do not off support in the clinic itself if she experiences pain, regret, and suicidal thoughts. THis is one of the major causes of suicide in America for women. These women need love an compassion.The most disgusting thing about this world itself is that it believes it is ok for a mother )or should i say pregnant woman) to kill her own child! How can we have a peaceful world after that. Not to mention, you guys have had the right to choose so what are you talking about not having that right is what made the wold a mess? Being a servant is a terrible way to describe motherhood. If you ever have children I know you will change your mind! And believe my I know all about child support. I receive on occasion $23 a week. It rediculous. Especially because he is 23 and still lives with mommy and daddy. However he is very grateful that I don;t raise it every chance i get, infact I never have. We get along great when not together. And yes I do have wonderful children. I expected to have babies that screamed constantly, that is how the world looks at babies. God must not have given me more then I can handle because though I am biased i think they are perfect., they have actually been really easy babies and toddlers. don’t get me wrong we have our moments but overall they are wonderful. So many people have come up to me and told me have well behaved they are. I don;t know that I could handle one that screams alll the time. Or maybe that is much more rare then the world makes us believe. And yes the womb is a safe place. Barring the mother doesn;t smoke, drink, drugs, or be exposed to terrotogens then yes it is safe. Or anything else the medical world has given to destroy the body (we don;t believe in vaccines either)
Comment posted March 13th, 2006 at 8:20 am
April says:
Lucy says:
“For nine months, she will be a servant to an eventual child who she does not want to whom she will be a servant to for the next 18 plus years.”
Lucy, It makes me sad to think that this is how a young woman would view motherhood. And I don’t believe that you or any other woman really believes this in her heart. Yes, a baby requires you to sacrifice. But no thing worth having in this world doesn’t require a sacrifice. In fact, the joy you will experience is in direct proportion to the sacrifices you are willing to make.
Motherhood itself is under attack in this culture, where women are taught to believe that giving of themselves to another is demeaning somehow, the stripping of her “rights”. Happiness and freedom do not come from fulfilling our own desires all the time. Paradoxically, the more you are willing to give up, the more free you will be and the happier you will be.
But you would not be here if your own mother had not sacrificed herself for you, and countless times. Does she wish you had never been born? On the contrary, I’m guessing that having you as a daughter gives her life great meaning, purpose and happiness. Putting your own wants and desires aside to serve another is the very thing that allows humanity to exist at all. And it’s the very thing that makes us happy, especially in the long run.
Now, whether you want your baby or not when you’re pregnant means nothing to that child when it is born. You will make sacrifices for him or her,
no matter how easy a child it is, or how much you wanted it. And even if you want the baby and love the baby, as most of us mothers do, there will be times when you don’t particularly feel like serving the baby’s needs. But you do. It’s a little thing called love. The love between a mother and a child is no small thing. In fact, it’s one of the most powerful things in the world. There’s nothing else like it, and that’s why abortion is so wrong. It twists love into death.
My point is, we cannot choose to love only on our own terms. Love always involves sacrifice — the greater the love, the greater the sacrifice we are willing to make. A woman who chooses abortion is choosing not to love, and that is the saddest thing in the world. She has no idea that the love she is withholding will only fill her own soul with emptiness and regret.
I thank God for my children. Without them, and there are seven, so far, my life would be so much less joyful. Yes, I could do what I wanted when I wanted. But what is the meaning in that? If I don’t live for love, I live for nothing and nobody.
I pray for your change of heart and others like you.
Comment posted March 13th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Lauren says:
Hey folks—sorry I’ve been away I started school again today from Spring Break
“May I remind you that you are a former fetus, and you mother could have chosen to end your life in which you would not have the right to choose to have sex outside of marriage. ” -Sydnie
What the heck does this mean Sydnie? I’m a former fetus? I’m also a former sperm and a former egg, and a former two year old and a former 15 year old and a former 18 year old and a former 20 year old. You have no point. If my mother had chosen to terminate her pregnancy I would not exist. Sounds pretty crappy now, but I dont think I would have had much thought about it when I was a zygote. Do you remember being a zygote? Do you know anyone that does?
What does Jesus say about war? Blessed are those that are the peacemakers. Plus he rejected all notions of law at that time which stated eye for an eye as its basis and also I remember this “turn the other cheek” notion, but who knows that probably isnt like a central theme jesus presents (sarcasm).
“You accuse us of looking at issues in terms of black and white, and yet that’s precisely what you’re doing on the question of who wrote the books of the New Testament. Nevermind the decades of debate, the disputes and differing schools of thought, not to mention the various biases and agendas—on both sides—that are brought to the question. No, because your teacher in your one undergraduate class declared that it’s “certain” we don’t know who wrote most of those books, why, it must be so.”
LOL eric… my teacher happened to be a Catholic priest. lmao.. Just because you face ignorance about your professed religion doesnt mean what I’m telling you is wrong. Ask any scholar or in fact anyone that has done any reasonable amount of study at the Vatican and they will tell you the same. The fact that you think the actual apostles wrote the Bible and you use it as a roadmap to preach is quite scary. It shows just how ignorant many right-wing “christians” are. This is not an opinion, this is fact. If you don’t like it, I’m sorry. That’s why people like you reject evolutionism. If you dont like it you just say oh no that’s wrong. Fucking weird but whatever. My grandfather was in the seminary and my grandmother was a cloistered Catholic nun for many, many years. I come from a long line of devout Catholics that would tell you what I am telling you. It has nothing to do with my issues or non-issues with the church, it is fact.
Shame on me for thinking the Bible shouldnt be the be-all to end-all of telling us what it takes to be a good person when a large portion of it is a giant game of telephone, in languages that cannot be translated lol.
I dont mean to be condescending. But when someone preaches at me or tells me or others what I can and cannot do on the basis of their closely held beliefs, recognize that me and others are going to hold you to the same standard of questioning what you believe in. When you do not know the basic tenets of who wrote what you are preaching, it is disturbing and you begin to lack credibility. I am not an expert, but I know enough to tell you that you are mistaken. Faith should be a challenge and a question, not an all-encompassing answer. You can never know faith in anything until you question. To me, you seem like another one of those blind believers, unwilling to doubt yourself and your beliefs. Think for a second, just imagine that you might be wrong. Imagine that all this stuff you talk about Jesus, is all wrong. I know it’s hard to move past it, but to have doubt enables faith. God’s greatest gift to us was our mind. And by God I am going to use it.
“And I think it was Lucy who said it (sorry, but there are so many comments that it’s getting confusing) but a mother is more than a mere incubator when a human being is growing inside her.”
Sunnyday, you would argue that a woman is a mere vessel of the zygote inside of her and therefore does not have rights. Don’t point fingers when your argument is contradictory. Btw, I can use zygote if you use chromosome. Rightwingers tend to use science when it is convenient!
“essentially he/she is protected from the things that we in the “outside world” are exposed to, and here i’m referring more to transgressions of the law such as murder, rape, theft — any form of assault and violence”
Then why bring a child into the world if this is what he/she experiences? Your argument is weak, back it up. Crap, I really dont want to have a child in a world where “criminals abound”. Lol.
April… you clearly misunderstand what it is to have choice. You have the choice to be a mother. You have the choice to be a careerwoman. You have the choice to be religious. You have the choice to not be a mother. All of these choices is a celebration of womanhood. Unless of course, you’d like to reverse the clock for us 200 years, I suggest you start learning that womanhood is not defined by motherhood.
Have you ever met someone who was abused, unloved, and unwanted? I have. April you act as though that every child once born is immediately loved and doted upon. When you come back down to earth, let’s talk. Until then, you can enjoy fairyland while the rest of us don’t think that way.
As for all of you that have had your own children and march against abortion. You are hypocrites if you do not adopt. Unless you are willing to take these children, you are a part of the problem, not a part of the solution.
Comment posted March 13th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
Sydnie says:
First of all, we do plan to adopt! as you know that costs a lot of money up front so we have to save for it! we are going to adopt older children that often get pushed aside for the babies. what are you talking about the war and all? have i ever implied that I am for war? and what does that have to do with abortion? maybe it does because abortion is war on teh child.
I do want to say this to you Lauren, I think it is great that you seek answers about religion and the bible,and teachings. You are right that is the only way you learn. And speaking of translations I agree with you as well. I am fluent in portuguese and I know that there are many things that simply do not translate. If you are familiar with the catholic faith then you are aware that we are based not only on sacred scripture but sacred tradition. I myself, put more emphasis on this. I know scripture is important as well but I also think that (maybe you have seen the documentary on the histroy channel about the bible and jesus having siblings and a child of his own, or perhaps you have read the da vinci code) I found both of these to deep root my faith even more, as well as open up the possibility that jesus may have had a daughter. I think that would be experience life on earth to the fullest. The bible only tells us what is necessary for salvation, in the grand scheme of things that is not important. I definately think you learn best by questioning and I think that is why you are spending time on this site. I have enjoyed talking to you and getting another perspective, not looking to change my mind but try to understand the other side. I still haven’t understood under any circumstances where abortion is justifiable. I think it is selfish. And you think it is bad that we think having a baby defines us? well I think it is bad when your career is what defines you. That is what we live for these days, status and money you know? I think that is so sad. Not that I am not guilty of that myself, I always think it would be nice to have money. I do realize now that what make me the happiest in this life are my children. recently I have really realized how much more they matter then anything esle after My dad had a car accident 7 months ago and is still in the hospital and is a tetraplegic. It has actually made me see how much a loving compassionate God we have. Sound crazy?! I can imagine. My dad has made a lot of bad choice and was an alcoholic most of his life (that was not the cause of his accident) He has almost died many times and I see how many chances God has given him, and really wants him to go to heaven. Unfortunately, my dad still seems unwilling to change. I don’t know what is in his heart and can’t judge but seeing how he treats the nursing staff is really sad. I hope you realize how much of a loving God we have as well. Seeing how much God has done for my dad to try to see him I see how much her cares and makes me all the more certain he would never want abortion to exist in our world.
Comment posted March 13th, 2006 at 9:23 pm
Sydnie says:
hope that made sense my mind is fried. Just had a nursing exam…sorry if it didn’t. Good night! God Bless :o)
Comment posted March 13th, 2006 at 9:31 pm
Sarah says:
I am amazed by the statements posted here - and confused too.
“Then why bring a child into the world if this is what he/she experiences? Your argument is weak, back it up. Crap, I really dont want to have a child in a world where “criminals abound”. Lol.”
(I’m sorry but I have to address my question to the person who wrote it) Then why are YOU here? Why do you continue to to live in a world where “criminals abound”? There must be something in “this life” that you like or live for — and you deny the aborted babies from having them.
“…to have choice.” We may have choices and we love having a lot of them. But the premise of having choices lies on the intellect of the person - if a woman is in a dire situation (for whatever reason), I can’t blame her if she becomes emotional or she may “think” that there’s not much of a choice but to abort the baby. But being too poor is not even a justifiable excuse for killing a human being in a womb. If it is a justification, then why in the world are the women in third world countries give birth to babies? I really don’t understand where some of the posted statements are coming from. (Apologies)
“Womanhood is not defined by motherhood.”
This is another mind-numbing statement and it almost knocked me off my chair. Maybe the author meant, “not solely defined”?
“Have you ever met someone who was abused, unloved, and unwanted?”
Yes. If I say I am abused, unloved and unwanted, does it mean that I could be justifiably killed too?
And isn’t it true that most of the babies that were put up for adoption had mothers who refused to abort their “tissues”? They “knew” too well that there are other “choices”.
Apologies again, call me naive but I’m really surprised with what I am reading in this “thread”.
Comment posted March 13th, 2006 at 11:43 pm
Lucy says:
April,
Motherhood under attack? Yes, I suppose it is arguable that if my mother had chosen to not have children, that I, being her child, would not be here. I’ll grant you that, and boy that was a puzzle. Would I have known had she chosen otherwise? I don’t think so; we obviously would not be having this discussion, but my suspicion is that I wouldn’t care. Yeah, my mother made a point of letting me know on a regular basis how much she regretted having me, offered to kill both me and her on several occasions. On a few occasions I thought she was actually going to do it. So you lose your second bet my dear.
I’ve grown though, I’m past it, I’ll just not have you telling me who I am. Motherhood is not under attack in this country. Why is it whenever something else gains equal or close to equal value the assumption is made that the former champion is under attack. Motherhood is safe as safe can be. It’s just that in modern times women have realized that they can do other things if they wish to.
What the devil is wrong with women choosing not to get married; not to have children, to instead pursue a career. What is with this crusade to make women feel as though they are less than women if they do not choose to be mothers, and if they must obtain some respectable feminine career that exihibits their softer qualities. Rejection of progress is one thing, attempting to scar young girls and women for accepting is quite another. The Amish have chosen to Reject progress, but I don’t have them telling me to turn out the lights and give away my car. What is wrong with women opting to acknowledge that they nor a child would benefit from the split of their time between family and career and therefore opting to be responsible and not have children.
Sacrifice, I know, sacrifice the career, the car, the home, the hopes, the dreams, put the virgin in the volcano and call it a day would you. Sacrifice has not led to the perpetuation of humanity. Wait, I take that back, for some of you, yes, Sacrifice has been the only reason for your perpetuation. Without the existance of those who were capable of developing the instruments that you so brazenly demand be sacrificed to you; those who discovered how to grow crops in mass, those who figured out how to keep the dirty water away from the clean water, figured out how to herd cattle, write, read, count, invented the wheel, communicate on any level, And here, in America, without those who understand what Freedom is, and that it must be defended against those who seek it’s destruction, and that no sacrifice is possible, lest it be lost, Without those who understood what it was and created it…Yes, without those people and their zest for life that caused thier blindness, preventing them from understanding that they were indeed being sacrificed, yes without them those who so steadily believe in human sacrifice would not have persisted. For those of us who do not believe in human sacrifice, we understand that nothing but exchange by mutual consent will allow humanity to exist in peace.
We acknowledge that an actual does not have to sacrifice herself to potential. When a woman becomes a mother it should be when she is ready to devote herself to helping a new life learn how to live. It should not be because she has been coerced into it. It should not be because she has been ordered to sacrifice herself to someone she did not agree to sacrifice herself too.
Please understand, I am not looking for your consent to be free to choose. I am telling you that I will retain my freedom to choose.
Comment posted March 14th, 2006 at 12:05 am
Lucy says:
Sarah, I don’t agree with you, but at least you make sense.
Comment posted March 14th, 2006 at 12:08 am
Lucy says:
Sydnie,
I never said that there was something wrong with choosing to be a mother. I’m sorry your sister forfeit the right to choose, but she chose. She had options, of course under those circumstances it is hard realize that you have options. Premarital sex does not lead to marriage, even when there is pregnancy. You, I believe, have declared you were pregnant out of marriage, and did not marry the father. You are correct that women do have other choices. I do not argue with that. Abortion is intended to be a last resort. Contraceptives are not 100percent effective, and not all women feel comfortable with adoption. I think that you’ll also grant me that there are already many unwanted and unadopted children available for adoption.
I think that I must tell you that after my abortion I never had a suicidal thought, nor did I feel guilty. What I felt was alone, I bought what was being sold. I grew up in an authoritarian household where none of the above options, short abistence would have been counted as an option. But, as you may have caught in an above post, healthy wasn’t exactly a descriptive term that could be applied. I did not think that I could talk to anyone regarding what I was experiencing. I was confused, and generally uncertain. I had been prepared by an upbringing in a Southern Baptist Church for the experiences that you listed above. I nearly thought there was something wrong with me for not feeling that way. I had braced myself, but it never came, the guilt, the pain, the suicidal tendancies. I’m not a statistic in a magazine or on a website or from propaganda. I’m real, I’m flesh and blood, that is my experience. I realized that those of us who have had abortions need to stop giving in to those who tell us what we are. We need to speak. We did nothing wrong. We have no reason for guilt. Some may feel regret, that’s all based on what drove them to their decision.
I do not count my abortion as a loss, though I thank you because I know your intentions were well. I’m strong now, I wasn’t then. Whether I could have raised a child well is irrelevant, but, what I knew was I didn’t want a child. I understand that their are Forty weeks between conception and birth, I know that in that time one can grow attached. I think that there is likely a link to how willing one is to consider opening oneself up to the possibility. You may have been in a better position for that. I don’t think I was. I know I wasn’t. I’m still not. I’m sure your children are wonderful, and I’m sure that you are a great mother.
I am at a loss for why you seem opposed to women choosing not to have children. It seems that abortion isn’t even the factor on that one.
Comment posted March 14th, 2006 at 12:30 am
Lucy says:
Sydnie, you’re right, Being a servant is a horrible way to describe being a mother. You would never describe it in those terms, neither would any woman who would be worth having as a mother. Can you tell me that you actually believe that a woman who sees it that way should be a mother?
Arguing that members of society do not have an obligation to pay for the children of others is not hypocripsy on my part. It is quite in line with what I’ve stated, nor is it a contradiction to the idea that women should excercise their mental facilities in deciding whether or not to have children.
I don’t know how to explain to you why it makes sense that Planned Parenthood doesn’t offer counseling, though I’m not sure that that is true, at least not 100 percent. No, it isn’t from fear that the woman will change her mind.
Science has not proven that life begins at conception. Not real science. A faith based imposter that has gained credibility under our current administration has certainly been behaving as though they had proven the impossible, but I’m afraid it isn’t so. The very basic vital organs required for independant survival do not exist at conception. The mind and the capacity for basic reasoning skills certainly don’t exist. Of course the chromosomes are there, the chromosomes come from the parents, they don’t grow there later. This is, as I understand it, the basis for stem cell research.
Stem cell research is another potential casualty in this battle for the anti-abortion crowd (I borrowed that from Leondard Peikoff, it’s more fitting than Pro-Life). Stem Cell research is a wonderful branch of scientific exploration that will, if allowed, in the future, prolong, improve, and save actual lives. I don’t understand how it can be justified to stifle this life saving exploration. It really will be a matter of choosing the Petri dish or the child it could save, as Lauren introduced earlier in this exchange. She was mocked for it, but it is real.
Comment posted March 14th, 2006 at 12:47 am
Lucy says:
Lauren, sorry break had to end. Hope it’s good to be back. (in school)
Comment posted March 14th, 2006 at 12:49 am
Lucy says:
Lauren, You may be interested in a website, http://www.abortionisprolife.com/
Comment posted March 14th, 2006 at 12:55 am
Lucy says:
Sydnie, while I’m thinking of it. The new law in South Dakota only penalizes doctors and not the women seeking abortions, am I correct on that. Presuming I am, how is that. If the belief is truly that the fetus is a human being that should have rights that supercede the rights of the mother then isn’t the charge against the doctor murder? Since when do we fine people for murder? I think that you’ll also agree that such a pitinance of time surved would never be accepted for a murder of an actual human being, and to issue a fine would be nearly offensive.
How is it that the woman seeking the abortion is not penalized in these cases if the fetus is an actual human being and she is then by all definitions taking out a hitman via a medical procedure. If an individual in legitamite murder cases, pays someone to commit the murder, they share the guilt of the crime.
What is actually occuring that fines and and jail that are less than would be acceptable for a small time marijuana dealer are being administered for what the anti-abortion zealots will declare to be pre meditated murder?
Something isn’t right, and I’ve been trying to figure it out. I was hoping that you could help me out and explain it.
Comment posted March 14th, 2006 at 8:16 am