Reply: You probably should not have an abortion.

God has given me a love for even the smallest of his people. Is it hateful to speak for them when even their own parents would rather they were dead? What is the difference between a child born at 24 weeks and a child aborted at 24 weeks? What is the difference between the future president, at his or her conception, and another child, conceived in the same instant, who simply fails to implant in the womb because his mother was using birth control? Who are you to decree that standards like that baby’s future usefulness or the subjective and changeable idea of whether his or her “parents” “want” him or her make that baby’s life more or less important?

Reply: What is it about unwanted pregnancy you don’t understand? Given that gestation to term is eleven times more dangerous than having an abortion, I will decide when, where, how and if I gestate any pregnancy. That is not a decision you need involve yourself in, as my children and my ova are mine.

Lucy, I think that your objection to this statement simply goes back to the personhood of fetal humans. I have gotten the impression that this would be one accurate way to summarize your view:

I believe that women have complete control over any fetus in their bodies, including the right to have that fetus removed, even if that would mean that fetus would cease all growth and development.

If this is true, than your objection to Mary Kay’s assertion is simply a matter of semantics. Those who believe (as many on this list do) that fetal human beings are people deserving of rights would read this statement as, Women can control unborn babies by killing them. Despite the inflammatory wording, these statements are about the same.

Lucy also said:
Of course we aren’t guarenteed happiness. We are guarenteed the pursuit of it. What would be your precise point? Oh, is your point that we don’t get to have sex or that abortions might make people happy. What is it you are getting at precisely? Having children makes people miserable but suck it up it comes with having sex and you just had to have that so now suffer the consequences? Please explain what your point was.

There are many things that are restricted which, if not restricted, might make some happy. Drinking might make some teenagers happier, but it is not permitted. Sex with children might make Dutch pedophiles happy, but it’s not allowed. Some people might take glee in murdering their spouses, but that’s not legal. Using an internet paper to get a good grade in a class might be a relief to some students, but that does not mean it must be permitted for those students’ pursuit of happiness.

Lucy mentioned this scenario:
Does the woman have any rights? You are not taking my rights away? If the child that you are salvaging is female, and she suffers an abusive life where she is never allowed to make a decision for herself. What if she has a life where she is told on a daily basis that she is a horrible wretched invasion on the life of everyone in the world. What if her mothers only joy in life is beating her every hour on the hour. What if her mother tells her everyday how much she hates her, how much she has ruined her life. What if her mother makes her sit and listen she speaks to people on the phone about how horrible she is, what if the girl never knows who her mother spoke to and doesn’t know who does and does not think she is a monster? What if she spends her entire childhood horrified that someone will yell at her. Never knowing who, when or why someone will yell at her for anything. What if she never knows when she will be hit.

What if her father slams her into walls. Threatens to leave on a regular basis. Which she is told is her fault as well. What if she is told regularly that she doesn’t have it so bad and nobody else would take her. That noone else in the world would ever love her. What if she spent her entire youth terrified and alone. It didn’t matter where, home, school, Church, pick a place it doesn’t matter. What if she felt that she was alone and hated universally because of what they did to her. What if worse, she started to believe that maybe she was that horrible. That noone would ever love her.

And what if her mother never tried to get an abortion?
Clearly you feel compassion for a child in such a circumstance. I hope that you understand that we all do.
Let’s imagine DSS is notified, sees the life this girl has, and determines she’ll never be able to live a normal life. So they have her painlessly put to sleep. Is that okay?
Obviously, in such a scenario, it would be the responsibility of any individual who saw what was happening, and the responsibility of society as a whole, to put a stop to this abuse. I think you would agree with me on this. But people who believe that a fetus is a human being do not think that abortion—killing the child—can ever be a better solution.

Besides, if that mother truly hated her daughter that much, why didn’t she just put her up for adoption and get on with her life?

Do you truly feel that your own life is worth more when more people like you, and worth less when less people—or even no people—care for you? Again, the core issue is whether this girl is a human being before she is born. When my in-laws’ cat suffered from a mental disorder, they had her killed as painlessly as possible. When someone’s grandfather is suffering similarly, his family takes care of him even though he will likely never recover. The position of pro-human-life people is that the dignity of a human being is best served when we don’t treat his or her life as something to be snuffed out when it is or becomes inconvenient, but a gift of God that is his alone to take away.

What if then one day she meets someone who seems to defy everything that they have told her. What if initially she doesn’t even know what to do when someone touches her in a way that isn’t violent. What if all she knows is that maybe they were wrong that maybe someone does love her. What if that was all she wanted, and more than she thought could ever happen. What if she found out one day that she was pregnant, and that it might be true afterall, that noone would love her. What if she hadn’t known anything about birth control because she wasn’t allowed to learn. They taught it in school, but only with parental permission that she didn’t have. What if the only thing that made it so that she could function at all was that she happened to be at least sort of intelligent. Allowing her to be aware at very least that she had no way to take care of a child, that she couldn’t even take care of herself and that she had no one to turn to for help.

This is where I feel that Christians, and perhaps even government programs, can be of most benefit. This is the purpose of crisis pregnancy centers and group home or family placements of young pregnant women. I know I would take her in in a heartbeat. I think a lot of people would, especially in churches. I suspect you might as well. Wouldn’t it be better if this young woman heard a message of hope—that there were people who could help her take care of her baby, and she did not have to snuff out the tiny life of one who truly would unconditionally love her? What would abortion solve for her? If her boyfriend really wouldn’t love her unless she got an abortion, do you truly think that is a good relationship for her? What if the relationship ended shortly after the abortion, as so many do? Is she any better off? Or is she worse off, thinking that she’s still unloved and she has ended the existence of a being which was dependent on her?

She had for all intensive purposes been deprived of anything that could be called life unless you are simply content to understand life as a pulse, which she wasn’t. Will you deprive her of life for the rest of her life. Will you then inflict this pain on a child that she doesn’t want, can’t take care of, and doesn’t know enough to even understand what happened to her. Never mind ensure that she won’t inflict the same kind of wounds on her child.

I actually suspect that she would be so desperate for someone to love that she would have welcomed any alternative to abortion, unless threatened by the loss of the one who got her pregnant. If her boyfriend truly did love her, what if he said he would marry her? Why can’t the rest of her life include this new child? What makes you think that hospital workers or social workers or others with whom she might come into contact in carrying her pregnancy to term would not teach her what to do with a baby? Are you implying that abused children should all be sterilized, or that they should never be allowed to reproduce?

But you’re saving lives. So you probably think she should have just sucked it up. She had a pulse. She’s good to go. So what if she was abused, physically, emotionally, mentally, for her entire life. So what if she happily accepted the first offer of what seemed to be kindness and love that she had set in front of her. So what if that would be her entire life right. She doesn’t actually have the right to be okay. She’s pregnant now. She has responsibilites now. It’s over for her. She had the right to pursue happiness. She pursued it. She got it wrong.

I guess in your book she deserved all of the abuse. She asked to be born and she should just suck it up. Sometimes life just sucks right. I guess in your book she really was just that horrible. She really was just a monster. Afterall, what do you care. She doesn’t have any excuses. She had a pulse right. Who cares if she would have been in so much pain she would have more than likely raised her child with the only things that she had ever learned. Who cares that her child would have had the same problems right.

I think that’s unfair. I think many of us would want to extend her all possible compassion. I would not be thinking she should “suck it up” after hearing her story. I do know what it’s like to feel unloved, although I know that I am not. I cannot help but think that in her circumstances an abortion would only hurt her more. I would feel compelled to do whatever I could to help her and her unborn baby, and although I understand that you do not agree, I think my response would be the more compassionate one. If you were trying to make up a case where we would feel sympathy for a young pregnant woman, you’ve done an excellent job. But if you want us to say that abortion would be acceptable, you will always fail. The killing of a living unborn baby can never be truly compassionate.

You afterall, know that all fetuses are just sitting inside the womb hoping to be born right.

Even most animals have some survival instincts. Babies are born responding to sound, light, taste, and other stimuli, even extremely premature infants. It is more reasonable to assume that a baby wants to live than that he or she would want to die.

Would it mean anything to you at all to know that upon learning that there was such a thing as abortion in the world she wondered why her mother hadn’t had one. That she wished and prayed to a God she now knows isn’t there that her mother wasn’t there.

Yes. That would, indeed, affect me; it would make me very sad. Why would knowing abortion was there convince her God wasn’t there? Or is that not what you meant to imply? Why do you not think that, given a chance, some love, and some sound information on how to care for herself and her baby, she would not want to and try to give that infant the life she never had? Would it mean anything to you if she decided in her heart that she wouldn’t be like her mom, that she would always let that child know he or she was loved, and that she would try her best to give her son or daughter everything he or she needed? Or would you still want her to get an abortion, because she might end up being a bad parent anyway?

It isn’t that there aren’t good parents who should have children in the world. I just think that half the battle is knowing whether or not you are one of those people.

Yes. But I do not think these things justify the killing of their children. I simply see it as being just as reprehensible as killing a born child who is there for everyone to see.

Of course you’ll probably tell me that that is a copout.

It’s not that it’s a copout. It’s that abortion can only be compassionate if what you are killing is not a human being, if it is somehow less. I think that, if you try, you can understand this. Suppose that a woman lived in a country where the lives of women were not valued, and her husband wanted to be free of the responsibilities of supporting her. So he beat her until he died. No amount of cultural sensitivity can lead you or I to think his action was right, even if others around him had no problem with this murder. That is the way that we see abortion. Sometimes we can have some compassion for those who choose this. We can see that they didn’t realize it was wrong and felt like they had no choice. But that does not lessen the reality that, as far as we are concerned, what has died is a valuable human person.

You’ll tell me the girl I described doesn’t exist. You’ll tell me a lot of things that aren’t true.
Nope.

I truly think that your story, though fictional, is moving. I think that it could be true. But to me, it has two victims, and I have compassion for both of them and do not think that the well-being of one should be sacrificed for the well-being of the other.

Let me tell you a story:

Suppose there were a young teenager who found herself pregnant. She was a good kid who didn’t deserve it–she’d been as careful as could be expected, but now she was faced with the prospect of having this baby. Her support system wasn’t the best. Her fiance said that he’d leave her; he claimed the baby couldn’t be his. Her parents were real conservative; they wouldn’t want a bastard in the family. She didn’t know what, if any, support she could expect from them. She might just have to have this baby alone in whatever place she could find shelter. She had little education and no job skills. Shouldn’t girls like her–children, really–have access to an abortion? Why should she have to ruin her life over something that, by all rights, never should have happened to her?

Suppose her name was Mary, and this happened about 2000 years ago.

What is life.

I suppose now would be a bad time to tell you what hypocritical means.

I am trying to control a group of people by killing them? Well at least now I know where my to do list went, may I have that back please. ARE YOU KIDDING ME????????

I have the unalienable right to be alive? I think you might want to check that one. Or at least be more concise in your meaning, I think that you’ll find that if you examine it closely it doesn’t quite stand up to a whole lot of details that I must qualify as TOO EASY!

I think that you might want to examine what living means. Are we speaking of the maintanance of a pulse or would you like to expand your meaning to clarify what you speak of.

Of course we aren’t guarenteed happiness. We are guarenteed the pursuit of it. What would be your precise point? Oh, is your point that we don’t get to have sex or that abortions might make people happy. What is it you are getting at precisely? Having children makes people miserable but suck it up it comes with having sex and you just had to have that so now suffer the consequences? Please explain what your point was.

What are you defending exactly. Life? What is that in your opinion.

Does the woman have any rights? You are not taking my rights away? If the child that you are salvaging is female, and she suffers an abusive life where she is never allowed to make a decision for herself. What if she has a life where she is told on a daily basis that she is a horrible wretched invasion on the life of everyone in the world. What if her mothers only joy in life is beating her every hour on the hour. What if her mother tells her everyday how much she hates her, how much she has ruined her life. What if her mother makes her sit and listen she speaks to people on the phone about how horrible she is, what if the girl never knows who her mother spoke to and doesn’t know who does and does not think she is a monster? What if she spends her entire childhood horrified that someone will yell at her. Never knowing who, when or why someone will yell at her for anything. What if she never knows when she will be hit.

What if her father slams her into walls. Threatens to leave on a regular basis. Which she is told is her fault as well. What if she is told regularly that she doesn’t have it so bad and nobody else would take her. That noone else in the world would ever love her. What if she spent her entire youth terrified and alone. It didn’t matter where, home, school, Church, pick a place it doesn’t matter. What if she felt that she was alone and hated universally because of what they did to her. What if worse, she started to believe that maybe she was that horrible. That noone would ever love her.

What if then one day she meets someone who seems to defy everything that they have told her. What if initially she doesn’t even know what to do when someone touches her in a way that isn’t violent. What if all she knows is that maybe they were wrong that maybe someone does love her. What if that was all she wanted, and more than she thought could ever happen. What if she found out one day that she was pregnant, and that it might be true afterall, that noone would love her. What if she hadn’t known anything about birth control because she wasn’t allowed to learn. They taught it in school, but only with parental permission that she didn’t have. What if the only thing that made it so that she could function at all was that she happened to be at least sort of intelligent. Allowing her to be aware at very least that she had no way to take care of a child, that she couldn’t even take care of herself and that she had no one to turn to for help.

She had for all intensive purposes been deprived of anything that could be called life unless you are simply content to understand life as a pulse, which she wasn’t. Will you deprive her of life for the rest of her life. Will you then inflict this pain on a child that she doesn’t want, can’t take care of, and doesn’t know enough to even understand what happened to her. Never mind ensure that she won’t inflict the same kind of wounds on her child.

But you’re saving lives. So you probably think she should have just sucked it up. She had a pulse. She’s good to go. So what if she was abused, physically, emotionally, mentally, for her entire life. So what if she happily accepted the first offer of what seemed to be kindness and love that she had set in front of her. So what if that would be her entire life right. She doesn’t actually have the right to be okay. She’s pregnant now. She has responsibilites now. It’s over for her. She had the right to pursue happiness. She pursued it. She got it wrong.

I guess in your book she deserved all of the abuse. She asked to be born and she should just suck it up. Sometimes life just sucks right. I guess in your book she really was just that horrible. She really was just a monster. Afterall, what do you care. She doesn’t have any excuses. She had a pulse right. Who cares if she would have been in so much pain she would have more than likely raised her child with the only things that she had ever learned. Who cares that her child would have had the same problems right.

You afterall, know that all fetuses are just sitting inside the womb hoping to be born right.

Would it mean anything to you at all to know that upon learning that there was such a thing as abortion in the world she wondered why her mother hadn’t had one. That she wished and prayed to a God she now knows isn’t there that her mother wasn’t there.

It isn’t that there aren’t good parents who should have children in the world. I just think that half the battle is knowing whether or not you are one of those people. Of course you’ll probably tell me that that is a copout. You’ll tell me the girl I described doesn’t exist. You’ll tell me a lot of things that aren’t true.

Understanding Jefferson doesn’t have anything to do with being American. You’ll find that technically, Jefferson wasn’t American when he wrote it. You’ll also find that individuals such as Michaelangelo, Di Vinci and others of the sort weren’t Americans but thought in the same vein as Jefferson. Freedom, true freedom isn’t an American thing. The understanding of it, the hunger for it can’t be held by continental boundries.

I was unaware that you knew Thomas Jefferson personally. I have never met the man and so I let his own words speak for themself.

We are guaranteed by the declaration of independence the unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

No where does it say when that life becomes worthy of this right. Simply that every human being is guaranteed the right to life.

It also says that we have the right to pursue happiness, but it doesn’t guarantee that we will find it. so while you do not have the unalienable right to be happy, you do have the unalienable right to be alive.

When I say that you claim that I do not have the right to tell you what to do but you feel you have the right to strip another human being of his rights, I am not referring to myself. I am referring to the right of the child whose right to life you feel justified in taking away.

This is not and has never been a fight for a womans right to choose…it is a fight for the right of every child to be born and not to have it life taken from it. That would mean that you believe that your rights are more important than someone elses.

While I am trying to control a group of people to save the life of unborn children you are trying to control people by killing them.

I refuse to argue with you about the right to choose, because there a hundreds of things that you are forbidden from doing in this country and so it is a given that your right to choose is not guaranteed. If you wish to debate on whether abortion is wrong or right and leave out the choice issue, I will be happy to continue.

Please read the thread about the netherlands and pedophilia and you will see what I mean about not being able to choose to do anything you want…even if it is with your own body.
I’m sorry that you can’t see this. And as for Thomas Jefferson, I will quote him anytime I please, because I too am an american and the declaration of independence was written for me as well as you. Unless you had a seance and spoke to his ghost I can’t imagine where you get off telling me I better not dare say what Thomas Jefferson thinks and then turn around and tell me that YOU know what he thinks…that’s kind of hypocritical, no?

MK

God has given me a love for even the smallest of his people. Is it hateful to speak for them when even their own parents would rather they were dead? What is the difference between a child born at 24 weeks and a child aborted at 24 weeks? What is the difference between the future president, at his or her conception, and another child, conceived in the same instant, who simply fails to implant in the womb because his mother was using birth control? Who are you to decree that standards like that baby’s future usefulness or the subjective and changeable idea of whether his or her “parents” “want” him or her make that baby’s life more or less important?

I like the way you have declared I say the same old, same old. Usually I’m accused of being extreme, and I didn’t know asking you not to abuse Thomas Jefferson in the name of a cause he would have deplored would qualify as the same old same old. I’m sorry.

I think your confused if you think that I’m the one who is attempting to be controlling. Maybe I’m confused. Aren’t you the one trying to strip women of their rights? Aren’t you the one who thinks womens liberation was wrong?

I don’t know, I’m amused. If you don’t have anything to say without misusing Thomas Jefferson then I suppose that this is the end of the road. Was it the part where I asked what conditions you wouldn’t have been hateful under? Peace Love and Happiness right. The right wing Hippie, I do so love it. Man, see that was Unique. But that was Eric not you.

Just once I wish one of you guys would face this issue head on and not spew out the same old, same old.

Why do you have the right to decide what is okay for someone else but I don’t?

Until you can answer that question it seems that there isn’t much else to say…

MK

Removing a fetus from my body does not deny a right to life. Please, bare in mind that I am not the one who claimed to be the right wing hippie…if that’s not lunacy enough. I would simply appreciate it if you people would not insinuate you have nothing but love in your hearts for people you have made clear you would just as soon destroy as anything.

Not going to shoot a doctor or bomb a clinic…GOOD! Let’s stay on that page. I understand that you would like to assign that role to a few select crazies…but frankly I can’t tell who is who. Maybe you should wear signs that aren’t designed to hurt women who do have hearts, have made difficult decisions for reasons that you choose not to understand and now have to put up with you. Ask any women who has needed to decide to have an abortion how loving they think you people are. I’m sure they think you’re swell.

When you are done thinking for people besides yourself we can discuss morality. Until then, I don’t think so. You don’t know what I think, you don’t know what I feel. What’s more, you don’t care. You wish to implicate me with the indocrination you have recieved without asking what actually makes me tick.

You’re right. I want to be able to sleep with whomever I choose. Whenever I choose. You’re right. I want to be able to think for myself. Like I said, I don’t know who brain washed you, but boy did they do a good job.

Just so we’re clear though, am I to understand that if you had felt that my message was kind you would have been kind instead of hateful? So, if we’re nice to you….and do as you say…then you’ll be nice. Otherwise you will direct all responses in the hateful tone you chose above?

See Eric, once again you’re correct. It really is a myth. Your guys are kind and loving at all times. No matter what. I’m glad that we have that all nice and cleared up.

Perhaps we should be more like you and imitate that kind and sweet entry above…

To take isolated cases and claim that all of us feel the same way is like me saying that all women who are pro abortion are disgusting and degenerate….

No one here says that…misguided yes…but not evil…

And you really need to get off that “I want, I want, I want”… kick…We’ve heard it all before…

I want abortion to be legal, I want to sleep with whoever I want and I want to do it with no consequences. I want those prolifers to get off my case and I want everyone to agree that it’s not really a baby…

Guess what, the world doesn’t revolve around you and what you want. You want to get a tattoo? go ahead. You want to drink til you fall down? go ahead. you want to scream at the top of your lungs that you have rights? go ahead. But we’re not talking about you (I know, I know that’s hard to comprehend cuz it’s all about you, what you want, what you deserve, what you demand, and your rights… but just for this moment, one teeny tiny second we’re going to think about someone else and what they need. Can you handle that?) Other people have rights too. And in this case the childs rights outwiegh yours because you want the right to “choose” and that child wants the right to live!

We were given those rights by God, but if you don’t believe in God then we were also given those rights by our declaration of independence…

The unalienable right to life…

period.

and neither you nor the “women’s movement” can take away that right…at least not morally. One day you won’t be able to take away that right legally either.

Because if you take away that baby’s right to life, in essence you are taking away your own right to life.

Why is it that you can justify killing your baby, but get all bent out of shape when someone takes the life of an abortion doctor. Where I come from they are both wrong, and I urge you to think about that. If you take away one person right to life, you take away everyones…scary, isn’t it?

MK

Somehow it just doesn’t pass as evidence that anti-abortionists are nice to other anti-abortionists. I mean, that’s nice and all, but I don’t think that verbal and physical attacks directed at women seeking abortions or doctors facilitating the need are exactly what is percieved as kindness. I mean, just because you guys think that you are being kind to us doesn’t mean we see it that way. In fact, while you call it a myth, therefore explaining to us that our perceptions are mere hallucinations, declaring us ignorant and incompetent of understanding what we are reacting to. Boy, I’m glad you’re being nice. I mean, if calling us murderers and whores isn’t enough, now you want to call us stupid.

Bombing abortion clinics isn’t the action of a nice guy. Nor is shooting the doctor. I know that some would like to pretend that the gunmen in question are crazed. They felt that way once. But, us poor heathens weren’t listenening, so they snapped. One declared he’d do it again, and called for the others to follow in his footsteps. Even the Son of Sam has displayed remorse for what he has done, and it seems to be sincere…not that I would test the theory. Nobody wants to recieve Anthrax in the mail, and the excuse that they did it because they believed it would be wrong to kill is essentially useless.

Please, Eric, say you didn’t mean to be hate mongers. Say that you didn’t mean to give the impression that you were out for blood, and that you despised us. But please understand when offense is taken at your insinuation that we were just to stupid to understand that you are acting out of love, that we are merely to stupid to understand that we are, well, stupid.

Somehow, Eric, I just don’t see your cause as the projection of love that you wish it would be. Calling it so won’t make it so. I understand that you wish it would, however, your domineering desire to control a womans mind and body is betrayed by your actions.

Let’s not add Stupid to the things you need us to be. If these are the displays of love, then please, direct your hatred here.

I’m here…

We’re moving in three weeks - 8 people - 15 years - a lot of stuff!

But I’m here…

*If a woman makes a choice to have sex, then she in turn has made a choice to carry a pregnancy to term as well. If she is mature enough to choose to have sex, she is mature enough to carry a baby to term.

***What if she did the mature thing and used a condom but it failed, then why should she still have to pay the price. She did the responsible thing.

*How can a fetus not be human? Is it a dog or a cat?

***Even if it is human, it is not fully human. It is not viable, and therefore still totally dependent on the mothers body to get its food, oxygen, blood, life.
Why should a woman be forced to to continue a pregnancy when the “human” fetus isn’t able to live on its own. Until it is viable,
it is really just an extension of the mother, therefore the mother has a right to remove it because it is still HER body.

*having an abortion is not getting your tonsils taken out. This is a life and we shoudl not be comparing it to any other surgery.

***Why not compare it to any other kind of surgery? It is an unwanted, foriegn body and it has to be removed. There is no reason to continue to let it grow when it is clearly not wanted.
At eight weeks it is hardly on par with my 4 year old, and I don’t see why my four year olds life should be shortchanged just because my condom failed. Letting it grow would take away from the quality of my other daughters life. Is that fair? Why should she suffer just because there’s a potential baby growing.

*this is not the case as modern societies in fact are depopulating by having slowing birth rates.

(For the record, every human being on the face of the earth could fit into the state of Texas.)

***The population may be slowing down in some more modern countries, but in places like the Sudan the people are starving because there isn’t enough food. It’s not a matter of how many people there are, it’s whether or not they can be fed. We need to control the places where the people outwiegh the food supply.

*We cannot excuse the taking of a human life jus tbecause we may not be able to provide for it. Should I murder you if you are poor?

***I would agree with you, except I don’t believe you are murdering anyone. If you are poor and find yourself pregnant,
then you should not have to rearrange your entire life trying to provide for another human being. Ending the fetus life is the merciful thing to do. Why force that child to live in poverty, without enough food, clothes or education. Chances are it will grow up to repeat the past and remain poor.

*this is the risk the woman has taken by having sex. Childbirth is a glorious part of womanhood and maternal fatality rates are extremely low.

***Again with the “you’ve had sex so you should pay the price argument” Why should I risk my life with an unwanted pregnancy, just because my birth control failed. I did everything that you’re supposed to do, so I shouldn’t have to take responsiblity for this kid. Now you want to take away my right to have sex too? And I’m not so sure “CHILDBIRTH” is a glorious part of womanhood. Why else would they have invented the epidural. If you meant Child rearing, I disagree. It CAN be “glorious”, but only if the mother chooses it. If she didn’t then it can be such a burden that will affect the course of her entire life.
If she is not ready to be a mother, then there is nothing “glorious” about it. It takes money, and time and commitment.
If the woman chooses to have a baby then she is ready to accept the responsiblities for it. But if she is not ready, then the irresponsible thing to do would be to have the baby anyway. That’s not fair to the mother or the fetus.

*While I would agree that birth control should be outlawed because of its abortifacient qualities, i don’t believe this is the case! The law shoudl go as far as it needs to to protect those that are unborn.

***And what about women who need things like the pill for reasons other than birth control? How are you going to ensure that they aren’t having sex while on the pill? Or do you plan on not letting anybody take the pill? You can’t police who is having sex and who isn’t. A woman has the right to make these decisions for herself. No one else has the right to make them for her!.

*How can murder be a right?!

***It’s only murder if the baby is born. Otherwise it is still just part of the woman’s body. And the right is not to murder, the right that we are talking about is the right of a woman to do whatever she wants to her own body. Nobody can tell someone else what they can or cannot do to their own bodies. Nobody is forcing you not have a child, why should you be able to force me to have one. It is a very personal and private decision and none of yours or anyone elses business.

*abortion is a life issue, not a religious one.

***Abortion is not a LIFE issue. It is an issue about a woman’s right to her own body. You can be pro-choice but still against abortion. I don’t own a gun but I still advocate for the right of other people to do so…

*punishing the child for the sins of its father is stupid. The child deserves to live! That’s a bit of a stretch! What kind of rapist would perpetrate such a crim as a means of reproduction. Courts shoudl write into law that those rapists have no right to that child if such is the case.

***That’s just nuts. You’re telling me that you have the right to insist that I carry a rapist’s child to term and then pay for, feed and take care of it til it’s 21! What are you a sadist? Punish the child? It’s hardly a child, especially if I take the morning after pill!
And what about punishing ME! If I’ve already ready been forced to have sex with a mad man surely you don’t believe you have the right to force me to have his child. I would hate the kid because of where it came from! Now that’s punishing the child!

*there are plenty of people who will be willing to take care of the child if the mother is unwilling! Two wrongs do not make a right.

***You are absoulutely correct! Two wrongs do not make a right.
If I am raped by my father, forcing me to have his kid would just be a second wrong. Don’t you think the trauma of being forcibly raped by someone you trust is bad enough without having to raise your own father’s bastard child? I thought you guys were all about mercy…And I’m not gonna carry his child for nine months just to give it to someone else to raise. What kind of person gives their kids away anyhow? Who could live with that decision? Not me. And you don’t have the right to force me to!

*This is the shakiest excuse for abortion I have heard yet! A woman should carry her child naturally ignoring all else the doctors say! They could after all be wrong! After giving birth to such a blessing, the woman will come to love and realize her child despite what diabilities he/she has. The more time the child has to live the better! We should always protect the weakest in society.. what about those that are in wheelchairs? Should we kill them too?

***If a doctor does a test on me during the pregancy and tells me that my child is going to be born with down syndrome, there is no way you can make the decision for me to have to have that child…And how do you know that I will come to love that child? More likely I’ll come to resent that child. Do you have any idea how much work is involved in raising a child with Down Syndrome. I don’t BELIEVE you have the RIGHT to force me to give birth to a child with Down Syndrome but I KNOW you don’t have the ABILITY to force me to LOVE IT!!! Talk about arrrogance!

And while we shouldn’t kill the people that are already born and in wheelchairs, they might have been better off if there mothers had made a different decision BEFORE they were in wheelchairs…like before they were born! What kind of a life do these people have? They would be better off if they weren’t allowed to be born.

*********These are not really the views of the poster……

Whew! That was really hard! I found myself saying “exactly”, and “that is so right!”, while reading your “pro life” answers and cringing when I had to refute them! Is it that hard for you too?
Whose idea was this anyway? (LOL)

Okay, now refute my counter arguments…

God Be With You (and me during this discussion),

MK

a) You cannot be forced to support another entity against your will.

One’s property and autonomy are synonomous. Forcing a woman to continue her sharing of resources is like forcing a person quarter soldiers in his house and feed them as well. Surely it may be admirable if a person decides to feed and house someone less fortunate, but it is never a requirement to house a relative. A woman can even hand her minor child over to the state. It is merely unfortunate that, in the case of abortion, the other entity dies.

*If a woman makes a choice to have sex, then she in turn has made a choice to carry a pregnancy to term as well. If she is mature enough to choose to have sex, she is mature enough to carry a baby to term.

b) A fetus is not human; it is a part of a woman’s body.

*How can a fetus not be human? Is it a dog or a cat?

It is no more anyone’s business what happens to a fetus than what happens to a foreskin when a man gets circumcized. If I had cancerous tissue removed, would you be concerned about my tumor? The tissue of a severed finger will remain “alive” longer than a fetus removed from the womb. The government does not see fit to regulate the removal of gall bladders, except to make sure that a licensed professional does so.

*having an abortion is not getting your tonsils taken out. This is a life and we shoudl not be comparing it to any other surgery.

c) The world is overpopulated and resources are limited.
*this is not the case as modern societies in fact are depopulating by having slowing birth rates.

The population of humans grows exponentially, but the food supply grows arithmetically. Abortion is acceptable as a means to limit human population because, in a world of finite resources, it alleviates suffering more than causing it. It is better for poor families to avoid having more children than for some of their real, living children to die. Even in middle class and wealthy families, wouldn’t it be better to have just one or two children? Better use could be made of the family’s time and money than by continually having children they could not devote individual attention to.

*We cannot excuse the taking of a human life jus tbecause we may not be able to provide for it. Should I murder you if you are poor?
d) The alternatives to abortion are more dangerous.

Despite horror stories anti-choicers tell, it is very rare for women to die by abortion. Women die during childbirth, however. Some types of pregnancy, such as ectopic pregnancy, are always fatal when allowed to progress. In addition, if abortion were illegal, most would still get abortions illegally, resulting in a much higher death rate.

*this is the risk the woman has taken by having sex. Childbirth is a glorious part of womanhood and maternal fatality rates are extremely low.
e) The children of the poor would cost us more in the long run.
*this can’t even be used as an argument! it is a life!
Children born into poverty and the children of single mothers and adopted children all have an increased risk of becoming criminals. Society will have to spend much more on the upbringing of these children, who disproportionately have learning disabilities and other problems, and whose mothers are often on welfare. If they then turn to crime, we’ll have to pay for their upkeep in prison. Isn’t it be better to spare these children a difficult life? In addition, how would we pay for the many women who would be imprisoned for their responsibility in not bringing another life into the world?
*It is not the fault of the child fi they are brough into a difficult life! Everyone has difficult lives in their own right! We don’t kill them!
f) Outlawing abortion would also outlaw many kinds of birth control and medical treatments.

If abortion were outlawed, it prohibit the use of many kinds of birth control of which nearly everyone approves. The pill, the patch, the shot, emergency contraception, and the IUD would all be illegal. Only radical Catholics would agree with that. Over 90% of women use the pill at some point. It would be impossible for a woman to get chemotherapy or radiation therapy without making sure she wasn’t pregnant, and if she was, she might die of the disease without getting the treatment she needed. If the law is written improperly, women might be barred treatment for fatal ectopic pregnancies and Caesarean sections might be disallowed.

*While I would agree that birth control should be outlawed because of its abortifacient qualities, i don’t believe this is the case! The law shoudl go as far as it needs to to protect those that are unborn.
g) Taking away rights is unethical.

Women already have the right to an abortion. You can’t turn back the clock. It would be unfair and unAmerican to return to a discriminatory and arcane system where women were only breeders. Forcing women to bear children prevents them from participating fully in politics, economics, and the workforce. Should we also take away their right to vote and own property?
*How can murder be a right?!
h) Abortion is a religious issue.

Laws against abortion violate the separation of church and state. No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion, so why are some people so concerned about something that isn’t their business? We don’t disallow anyone from working on Sunday, eating beef, or making idols, so why is abortion so special?
*abortion is a life issue, not a religious one.
i) Arguments from rape

A rape victim should not have to carry a rapist’s child for nine months. This will keep reminding her of the crime commited against her body and will stop her from healing after the attack. It is cruel to force her to care a violent predator’s child against her will and it gives rapists cause to perpetrate crime as a means of reproduction.
*punishing the child for the sins of its father is stupid. The child deserves to live! That’s a bit of a stretch! What kind of rapist would perpetrate such a crim as a means of reproduction. Courts shoudl write into law that those rapists have no right to that child if such is the case.
j) Arguments from incest

A young girl who has been sexually abused by an older relative or a family member should not have to be reminded of the tragic event by an unwanted, and most likely ill, child. The family will not want the child, and it may grow up to be abused as well. There is no reason that a young teen or even pre-teen girl, or her family, should have to go through this difficult situation.
*there are plenty of people who will be willing to take care of the child if the mother is unwilling! Two wrongs do not make a right.

k) Argument from the case of a disabled fetus

It is a hard enough task to raise a normal child, but what of when a couple receives the devastating news that their child will be severely handicapped? No one should have to undergo the heartbreaking and difficult work of caring for a child with Down Syndrome or Spina bifida. What about those who will die a painful death within a few years, days, or even hours of birth? What about children which are already dead? Should a woman have to wait over a month to deliver a corpse? Should she be responsible for extensive care for an infant who not only will never be normal, but may never live beyond a week? Why get attached to a child who will only die anyway?
*This is the shakiest excuse for abortion I have heard yet! A woman should carry her child naturally ignoring all else the doctors say! They could after all be wrong! After giving birth to such a blessing, the woman will come to love and realize her child despite what diabilities he/she has. The more time the child has to live the better! We should always protect the weakest in society.. what about those that are in wheelchairs? Should we kill them too?

And we will be waiting…(evil laughter)…

Take a deep breath, do your best.

Only “A” students can debate here (LOL)

Good luck,

MK