A Man of Courage
— Posted by John (May 24, 2006 at 4:21 pm)
“It takes a tough person to play football. Well, what kind of priests do we want to have? We want someone who is internally strong and externally strong. That’s the kind of priest who can change society.”
These words were spoken by Ben Kessler, who recently graduated from the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, MN. Ben was a defensive tackle on the St. Thomas football team and completed his double major in philosophy and business with a 4.0 grade-point average. He was an undergraduate seminarian and plans to become a Catholic priest.
Ben Kessler is my new hero.
I had never heard of him until this morning, but I now know enough about him to know that he embodies the virtues of courage, holiness, and humility–the stuff of saints.
Ben exhibited these virtues at his school’s commencement when, after being named “Tommie of the Year,” he testified to the truth of the Catholic Church’s teachings on sexual morality, and railed against selfishness–a fault he admitted he himself is guilty of.
Ben’s remarks made not a few people uncomfortable:
A spring term that began with controversy at the University of St. Thomas ended the same way Saturday when a student used part of his commencement address to admonish people he considered “selfish,” including women who use birth control.
Pandemonium ensued in short order:
The remarks by Ben Kessler, a well-known student recently honored by peers and faculty as Tommie of the Year, led to catcalls and boos during commencement at the Catholic university in St. Paul. Others booed those who were booing.
Buzz about the incident dominated post-graduation parties, spread throughout the community and sparked a flurry of e-mails. By Monday, there were scattered requests to strip Kessler of his Tommie of the Year award and questions about why St. Thomas officials didn’t try to pull the plug on Kessler’s speech as the crowd’s unhappiness intensified.
Now that would have been a sight to see: a Catholic university silencing a Catholic student for upholding the Catholic Church’s teachings.
Kessler’s speech was the latest in a series of controversies that has divided the campus. It began with university decisions last year that kept a lesbian choral director from traveling with her partner and kept an unmarried heterosexual couple from sharing a room on a student trip.
And these decisions were controversial…why?
Those decisions, affirmed last month in a new university travel code, led to a fear among some staff and students that those who aren’t Catholic or whose lives don’t reflect Catholic doctrine aren’t welcome. St. Thomas officials said that wasn’t true but defended the travel policy position vigorously as consistent with Catholic values.
I still fail to see the controversy.
Commencement offered the chance to put all the divisive issues aside. As is the custom, the student-selected Tommie of the Year speaks at graduation.
“The speech started out pretty normal,” [Darin] Aus [a 2006 UST graduate] said. Then, he said, Kessler began talking about his disappointment at fellow students after a spring dance when a food fight became intense enough that security was summoned.
“His disappointment kind of snowballed,” Aus said.
Kessler also alluded to the unmarried professors caught up in the travel policy battles, calling them selfish. And he then called women who use birth control selfish.
He also called himself selfish and said he needed to be a better person, said university spokesman Doug Hennes.
Two days later, St. Thomas President Rev. Dennis Dease threw Kessler under the bus in a statement that could not possibly have been more lame:
I have shared my sentiments with Mr. Kessler that it was not appropriate for him to use the commencement exercise as a venue to express his opinions on several issues.
Kessler, for his part, apologized:
I first would like to apologize to all offended by my words. As I stated in the opening line of my address, graduation is a time to look back and a time to look ahead.
On Saturday, I looked back at some issues our university and our society have faced. I then looked ahead and tried to provide hope to all in attendance. Instead of providing hope to all, I offended some by my words and by my decision to speak those words at commencement. I sincerely apologize to each person I offended.
At first, I was disheartened to learn that he had apologized, as it seems painfully obvious that no apology was needed. But this Fumare blogger’s comment puts the apology in perspective:
While I would rather he not have apologized, it reflects that he is a class act and his motivation was not to inflame the audience, though apparently it doesn’t require much to do that.
Decide for yourself what to think about Ben’s commencement address remarks by watching this video excerpt of his speech, in which you’ll also hear several profanity-laced insults hurled at him while he spoke.
Additional Coverage
- American Papist: A Papist After My Own Heart
- Amy Welborn: Commencing
- Pro-Ecclesiae * Pro-Familia * Pro-Civitate: More MEN Like This in the Seminary, Please
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lauren says:
To be fair…. should catholic universities become solely vessels to promote the Catholic teachings.. It certainly isn’t that way here at Loyola… Do you believe this should be the case however?
Comment posted May 24th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
rosie says:
I’m not sure about the universities, however I think that if a parent wants to send their kids to catholic schools because they’re better than the public schools in the area they should be catholic and want their kids to learn about the faith. I think you should want and get what you pay for.
Comment posted May 24th, 2006 at 5:37 pm
Lauren says:
I agree with pre-secondary and post-secondary education that parents should be able to send their kids to catholic schools (and can and do so) as well as get them entrenched in their faith, but this issue is with Catholic Universities….
Comment posted May 24th, 2006 at 11:42 pm
Pansy Moss says:
To be fair…. should catholic universities become solely vessels to promote the Catholic teachings.. It certainly isn’t that way here at Loyola… Do you believe this should be the case however?
Absolutely! That is the point of Catholic education at all levels. This is why I would not send my child to a place like Brigham Young, Bob Jones or Brandeis. Brandeis doesn’t pretend to be “diverse” in who their school is aimed at, nor would I expect them to. People of other faiths and cultures attend there, but with a knowledge that campus life will be very culturally Jewish. Catholic schools should be the same.The point is to to be able to feel comfortable in that Catholic culture, especially during the college years. Schools that stray from that let us down as Catholics.
Comment posted May 25th, 2006 at 5:03 am
Mary Kay says:
Lauren (and all)
Plus, if the Catholic Church is making money off of these universites, I would think you’d be all over that Lauren.
They are misappropriating their funds by taking our money and not providing the implied product…
Shame on the Catholic Church…These schools should stand for something bigger than just degrees. That’s why they are specifically called “Catholic”…
mk
Comment posted May 25th, 2006 at 8:37 am
Annie says:
I attended Loyola University and found it frustrating when a teacher would impose his opinion rather than tell us what the Catholic Church teaches. I much more appreciated teachers who gave us the truth of what the Church teaches and then we could decide for ourselves if we wanted to embrace that teaching. We’re pretty bright students after all. Imposing an opinion is demeaning and shows a lack of trust in the student.
Comment posted May 25th, 2006 at 9:06 am
Lauren says:
Ha well… Hallelujah for diversity!!!!
I’m glad Loyola isn’t the Loyola you would want Annie. I am grateful for having spent time with Jews, agnostics, atheists, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit
I love the Jesuits!
Comment posted May 25th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Lauren says:
Anyways I’m raising money for a “life” cause and if any of you would like to donate here is the link.
http://www.theovernight.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=extranet.personalpage&confirmid=10005839
God Bless,
Lauren
Comment posted May 25th, 2006 at 6:40 pm
Quinn says:
Catholic universities must teach the catholic faith, otherwise, they should not be referred to as “catholic”. Loyola is not a catholic university.
Thomas having a guy promote catholic morals and teaching during his commencement is what SHOULD occur. AN atheist or agnostic or pro-abort is not to be up there contradicting the catholic church.
I mean, catholics have a hard enough time knowing what catholic doctrine is. I’ve asked a good number of catholics recently “What is the gospel message” and I have yet to get one correct response. Or even a response that includes Jesus Christ in the answer! Wait, I just got my first response that included Jesus in it last night. So, 1 out of around 50 so far.
There are obviously improvements that can be made to catholic teaching. I have in mind opposing instead of supporting legal positivism. Teaching true justice instead of defining justice as….I’m not really sure how professors at catholic schools would define justice actually. It seems to be whatever they think is right in their own eyes sometimes. I’ll look into this more. The fact that the large majority of catholics think that putting a criminal in prison is just troubles me. Prison as a response to crime is so completely unjust. Prisons existed when God revealed His criminal justice system and He didn’t make use of prisons. Call it a clue.
It would be great to see a recovery of Paul’s Gospel or “the gospel of the uncircumcision” as he calls it in Gal 2:7. Recover the “house rules of the grace of God” that Christ gave to Paul (Eph 3:2). But that would probably be met with hostility since most catholics give their teaching allegiance to Peter and lean towards his “gospel of the circumcision”. And the primacy given to what Jesus taught in the gospels during His earthly ministry in catholic worship and thought makes it really hard for any catholic to accept the doctrines Christ gave to Paul for the Body that differs with what He gave earlier to The Twelve for Israel.
Comment posted May 25th, 2006 at 9:36 pm
Lauren says:
Catholic meaning universal……. Who are you to say what Catholic is? What the Church says now is different from what it say 50 years ago, and 100 years ago, and even 1000 years ago… who’s to say it won’t change. Last I checked you don’t hold a patent on morality and Catholicism.
Loyola is a Catholic University and is a Catholic University in all its glory. It is tolerant, caring, and diverse; Catholics should not be angry, intolerant, and arrogant. They should be humble and they shoudl serve others and not their own egos.
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 12:54 am
Lauren says:
“I mean, catholics have a hard enough time knowing what catholic doctrine is. I’ve asked a good number of catholics recently “What is the gospel message” and I have yet to get one correct response. Or even a response that includes Jesus Christ in the answer! Wait, I just got my first response that included Jesus in it last night. So, 1 out of around 50 so far.”
Are you freaking kidding me dude? Just because some people dont fit the standard of your hatred and intolerance toward others does not mean that they don’t understand the meaning of gospel… When you spread the gospel (as you are supposed to), you to me are spreading bad news, not good news… If you represent Jesus, I hate Jesus and Jesus should be condemned and never even taken seriously.. That being said you do not represent Jesus and neither to do .
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 12:57 am
Pansy Moss says:
Catholic meaning universal……. Who are you to say what Catholic is?
Sigh. Loyola in “all it’s glory” needs to teach a bit more on language lessons, especially when it comes to it’s own interests. The word “Catholic” translates to the word “universal”. A number of other religions are based on ethnicity (i.e. Muslims tend to be Arab, Jews tend to be ethnically Jewish, black baptists, Russian orthodox, Greek orthodox etc.). The Catholic Church is one of the few (if not only) religions that simply is for followers of Christ despite race or ethnicity making it the Universal Church.
And yes, the Catholic Church does change, but part of being Catholic is being obedient to the Magesterium now! Not making it up as you go along thinking “well the Pope will agree with me someday.” If any institution be it a parish, Catholic Charities, a grade school, a University calls itself Catholic, it means by definition it follows the teachings of the Magesterium. Again, if you substituted your own words with the terms “Brandeis” and “Jew” instead of Catholic, or “Howard U” and black and said “Brandeis is so intolerant and ignorant because they are sooo Jewish…” or “Howard is soooo ignorant or intolerant because they are soooo black there”, you would sound like a bigot and a fool.
Poor Ignatius Loyola must be sad of what became of some of his Jesuits.
Hallelujah for diversity!!!!
I really hate these politically correct buzzwords “diversity” and “tolerance”. All they are is acceptable to means to look at someone who is different and excusing them as not one of you, but still trying to not look like a bigot. A person who truly isn’t a bigot could care less because all people are simply people. Since when is “tolerating” someone who is a different race or religion a Christian concept. You don’t tolerate people (”tolerate” comes from the Latin tolerare which means to “endure” or “bear” like a colonoscopy), you see a human being like you and respect them as God’s Child as you would have them do you. In essence this is the exact opposite in meaning than what people pretend it means. You should listen to the words you speak before you speak them (or buy a dictionary).
That said, you respect people of other religions, opinions etc. but respecting the people in no way means you agree with them. I love my husband dearly, but he is into Reggaeton which is not music and gives me a headache. I don’t think less of him as God’s Child because of it, I just think he has horrible taste and is well, just wrong when he calls that stuff music. I can take that same philosophy and apply it to my Jewish or Protestant family, Protestant neighbors etc… You will not see me agreeing with them in debates about religion, but you will see a family who cares about each other.
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 5:21 am
Pansy Moss says:
While I would rather he not have apologized, it reflects that he is a class act and his motivation was not to inflame the audience, though apparently it doesn’t require much to do that.
This part has been on my mind. I agree that his apology shows class…but it is like always the case when you take the counter cultural side of life. You end up offending a lot of people and apologising for the offense when in essence you speak truth. It is never true on the other side. Do you know how many PP billboards I see in lower income black or Hispanic neighborhoods? There is a radio commercial for PP that plays on the hip hop station with a man talking about “birth control is power” (so racist and genocidal). I am quite offended by the concept that you can have go have sex with as many girls as you want with no responsibilty, and that is “power”, but no one apologises to me.
Anyway, I am not saying he was wrong to apologise (or maybe I am), but for all this talk about “diversity”, why should a Catholic gentleman apologise for expressing his Catholic position at a Catholic school?
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 5:30 am
mary kay says:
#
Lauren says:
“I mean, catholics have a hard enough time knowing what catholic doctrine is. ”
Lauren,
Anyone interested in what the Catholic doctrine is only has to read the cathecism. Stay away from sources that confuse you and go straight to the horses mouth…
This is why people become protestants. They don’t like the official teachings of the church so they search for something that is more to their liking.
But being Catholic is about learning to bend to Catholic Teaching and not bending Catholic Teaching to suit yourself.
We must never bring the church down to our level but always strive to bring ourselves higher to meet the church.
This is not always easy, but part of the beauty of the Church is that it is the closest thing to the full and absolute truth that we have and no matter how deep down you dig, there is always more. You never know or understand it all and there is always more to discover…like peeling away onion skins. If you just stay on the surface of the faith then you miss pure joy of (as they say in Narnia) going higher up and further in…
and you are more likely to misunderstand or dismiss what you disagree with. Read, read and read some more, but make sure you are reading acceptable material.
Fulton Sheen, G K Chesterton, Father Corapi, any of the saints or doctors of the church…find out why we believe these seemingly ridiculous things and then realize that they make perfect sense and are for our own good.
MK
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 8:29 am
mary kay says:
Lauren
I am so sorry, I got majorly confused there, and attributed things someone else said to you…
But the advice is still good…
Truly sorry…
MK
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 8:35 am
Lauren says:
I don’t think you all are understanding.. Different catholics think different things and I’m sorry I don’t always take what the Pope has to say seriously. A lot of priests even question him. Besides, you think the church is really right saying we women can’t be priests because we have VAGINAS!?
Anyways, I love Loyola the way it is and I’m glad it’s not run by a bunch of right-wing Christians. There is diversity amongst Catholic thought and if you have a problem with that, well then leave the Church I guess. You too could be protestant and more conservative.. Calvin did it!
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 9:44 am
mary kay says:
Lauren,
Don’t get so angry - please!?!?!?!
All I’m trying to say is that part of Catholic Doctrine is obedience to the pope.
“A lot of priests even question him”
This is a perfect example of why. When different priests or different lay people give you different responses to the same questions, you go to the cathecism or read what the pope says and then you know the Catholic teaching on it.
This is what I mean by digging deeper. You’ll always be able to find someone (priest or otherwise) who tells you what you want to hear. That is why there must be an “absolute truth”.
I realize that following things that go against your rational thought can be difficult, but before you throw out the baby with the bathwater, you need to research why certain things are the way they are.
Yes, there is a LOT of room for diversity in the Catholic church, but some things CANNOT be changed. It is not up to the church to meet the world on its terms but the worlds job to meet the church on hers.
I understand your feelings about women being priests (although I wish you had said it more tactfully), but the church didn’t say that women can’t be priests…as catholics we believe that Jesus said that woman can’t be priests. This is a good example of wanting the church to change to fit what the world thinks is right, and the church saying the world needs to understand why she says this and obey…
There are books and books and books on this subject. I’m sure someone could reccomend some good ones to you.
“I don’t always take what the Pope has to say seriously.”
But you must take what the pope says seriously, if you want to be a Catholic. You don’t have to like what the pope says, but you must obey it and accept it.
When I suggested that the reason protestants leave the Catholic church, I wasn’t pointing my finger at you…
I’m just saying that an attitude of “I know better, and I won’t listen to the pope”, reinforces the idea that you have a choice.
OH OH! There is that phrase again…You see how tricky the word choice can be. God gave us free will because He only wants our love if we give it freely, but to give it freely we must make the CHOICE to give up our right to make certain CHOICES by being obedient to his spouse, the church.
The hardest thing for most people, especially Americans, to do, is to submit to somebody, anybody, elses will. We don’t like to give up control. We want to remain in the delusion that we are in control. But being a Christian, (Catholic), is all about giving up that control to Someone who knows better and has your best interests at heart. Otherwise it is just social work and not God’s work. And that Someone gave the decision making control to Peter who has passed it down for 2000 years. So you see, the church didn’t put the pope in charge, Jesus did.
MK
It’s the same with the abortion issue. While you can remain merciful and understanding of the women and their circumstances, we look to the pope and our cathecism to see that no matter what our personal feelings our, abortion is not allowed within the parameters of the Catholic church. So even thought you and a million other Catholics don’t agree, once again Catholics need to rise up to meet the church, she does not have to come down to our level of understanding. Read, Read and read some more…
Read the Catholic churches teaching on abortion and chastity.
Understand that it not prudishness, it’s standing in awe of the unbelievably amazing gift of creating life. And that if it is allowed to be created, then ending it is an insult to God. It’s like saying that God is capable of making mistakes. Or God is limited, and each woman knows better than God what is best for her.
We either have to accept that God is EVERYTHING, or we diminish Him to a god with a small “g”. Therefore if a woman ends up pregnant under ANY circumstances, we must accept that our pea brains might not understand it but God’s infinite one does. And then you have to trust that He has thought the whole thing through and He has a plan. And then you have to submit to His plan.
This is what Christ did for us. He suffered. He accepted. And He trusted that the crucifixion was for a reason. If we aren’t willing to accept the cross of doing things that seem to go against our own thoughts, then in essence we have missed the whole point of His sacrifice.
We were given Life. We have to make a choice. Do we submit to God, or do we try to decide things for ourselves? Do we accept the hard things that we are asked to do, or do we always look for a more pleasant road, an easier way out? Do we say whatever You want Lord, or do we say whatever I want? Do you see?
And the bottom line is, that if the pope or a priest makes a mistake and we follow it because that is what we are taught to do, then the pope or the priest will be called to task, not us.
We did our job. They fudged on theirs. If a priest is giving you erroneous information, then God help that priest. And we need to pray for him because he will have to face God one day and explain why he didn’t “feed his sheep”
MK
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 11:30 am
mary kay says:
#
Mary Kay says:
Lauren,
I’m here…
We’re moving in three weeks - 8 people - 15 years - a lot of stuff!
But I’m here…
*If a woman makes a choice to have sex, then she in turn has made a choice to carry a pregnancy to term as well. If she is mature enough to choose to have sex, she is mature enough to carry a baby to term.
***What if she did the mature thing and used a condom but it failed, then why should she still have to pay the price. She did the responsible thing.
*How can a fetus not be human? Is it a dog or a cat?
***Even if it is human, it is not fully human. It is not viable, and therefore still totally dependent on the mothers body to get its food, oxygen, blood, life.
Why should a woman be forced to to continue a pregnancy when the “human” fetus isn’t able to live on its own. Until it is viable,
it is really just an extension of the mother, therefore the mother has a right to remove it because it is still HER body.
*having an abortion is not getting your tonsils taken out. This is a life and we shoudl not be comparing it to any other surgery.
***Why not compare it to any other kind of surgery? It is an unwanted, foriegn body and it has to be removed. There is no reason to continue to let it grow when it is clearly not wanted.
At eight weeks it is hardly on par with my 4 year old, and I don’t see why my four year olds life should be shortchanged just because my condom failed. Letting it grow would take away from the quality of my other daughters life. Is that fair? Why should she suffer just because there’s a potential baby growing.
*this is not the case as modern societies in fact are depopulating by having slowing birth rates.
(For the record, every human being on the face of the earth could fit into the state of Texas.)
***The population may be slowing down in some more modern countries, but in places like the Sudan the people are starving because there isn’t enough food. It’s not a matter of how many people there are, it’s whether or not they can be fed. We need to control the places where the people outwiegh the food supply.
*We cannot excuse the taking of a human life jus tbecause we may not be able to provide for it. Should I murder you if you are poor?
***I would agree with you, except I don’t believe you are murdering anyone. If you are poor and find yourself pregnant,
then you should not have to rearrange your entire life trying to provide for another human being. Ending the fetus life is the merciful thing to do. Why force that child to live in poverty, without enough food, clothes or education. Chances are it will grow up to repeat the past and remain poor.
*this is the risk the woman has taken by having sex. Childbirth is a glorious part of womanhood and maternal fatality rates are extremely low.
***Again with the “you’ve had sex so you should pay the price argument” Why should I risk my life with an unwanted pregnancy, just because my birth control failed. I did everything that you’re supposed to do, so I shouldn’t have to take responsiblity for this kid. Now you want to take away my right to have sex too? And I’m not so sure “CHILDBIRTH” is a glorious part of womanhood. Why else would they have invented the epidural. If you meant Child rearing, I disagree. It CAN be “glorious”, but only if the mother chooses it. If she didn’t then it can be such a burden that will affect the course of her entire life.
If she is not ready to be a mother, then there is nothing “glorious” about it. It takes money, and time and commitment.
If the woman chooses to have a baby then she is ready to accept the responsiblities for it. But if she is not ready, then the irresponsible thing to do would be to have the baby anyway. That’s not fair to the mother or the fetus.
*While I would agree that birth control should be outlawed because of its abortifacient qualities, i don’t believe this is the case! The law shoudl go as far as it needs to to protect those that are unborn.
***And what about women who need things like the pill for reasons other than birth control? How are you going to ensure that they aren’t having sex while on the pill? Or do you plan on not letting anybody take the pill? You can’t police who is having sex and who isn’t. A woman has the right to make these decisions for herself. No one else has the right to make them for her!.
*How can murder be a right?!
***It’s only murder if the baby is born. Otherwise it is still just part of the woman’s body. And the right is not to murder, the right that we are talking about is the right of a woman to do whatever she wants to her own body. Nobody can tell someone else what they can or cannot do to their own bodies. Nobody is forcing you not have a child, why should you be able to force me to have one. It is a very personal and private decision and none of yours or anyone elses business.
*abortion is a life issue, not a religious one.
***Abortion is not a LIFE issue. It is an issue about a woman’s right to her own body. You can be pro-choice but still against abortion. I don’t own a gun but I still advocate for the right of other people to do so…
*punishing the child for the sins of its father is stupid. The child deserves to live! That’s a bit of a stretch! What kind of rapist would perpetrate such a crim as a means of reproduction. Courts shoudl write into law that those rapists have no right to that child if such is the case.
***That’s just nuts. You’re telling me that you have the right to insist that I carry a rapist’s child to term and then pay for, feed and take care of it til it’s 21! What are you a sadist? Punish the child? It’s hardly a child, especially if I take the morning after pill!
And what about punishing ME! If I’ve already ready been forced to have sex with a mad man surely you don’t believe you have the right to force me to have his child. I would hate the kid because of where it came from! Now that’s punishing the child!
*there are plenty of people who will be willing to take care of the child if the mother is unwilling! Two wrongs do not make a right.
***You are absoulutely correct! Two wrongs do not make a right.
If I am raped by my father, forcing me to have his kid would just be a second wrong. Don’t you think the trauma of being forcibly raped by someone you trust is bad enough without having to raise your own father’s bastard child? I thought you guys were all about mercy…And I’m not gonna carry his child for nine months just to give it to someone else to raise. What kind of person gives their kids away anyhow? Who could live with that decision? Not me. And you don’t have the right to force me to!
*This is the shakiest excuse for abortion I have heard yet! A woman should carry her child naturally ignoring all else the doctors say! They could after all be wrong! After giving birth to such a blessing, the woman will come to love and realize her child despite what diabilities he/she has. The more time the child has to live the better! We should always protect the weakest in society.. what about those that are in wheelchairs? Should we kill them too?
***If a doctor does a test on me during the pregancy and tells me that my child is going to be born with down syndrome, there is no way you can make the decision for me to have to have that child…And how do you know that I will come to love that child? More likely I’ll come to resent that child. Do you have any idea how much work is involved in raising a child with Down Syndrome. I don’t BELIEVE you have the RIGHT to force me to give birth to a child with Down Syndrome but I KNOW you don’t have the ABILITY to force me to LOVE IT!!! Talk about arrrogance!
And while we shouldn’t kill the people that are already born and in wheelchairs, they might have been better off if there mothers had made a different decision BEFORE they were in wheelchairs…like before they were born! What kind of a life do these people have? They would be better off if they weren’t allowed to be born.
*********These are not really the views of the poster……
Whew! That was really hard! I found myself saying “exactly”, and “that is so right!”, while reading your “pro life” answers and cringing when I had to refute them! Is it that hard for you too?
Whose idea was this anyway? (LOL)
Okay, now refute my counter arguments…
God Be With You (and me during this discussion),
MK
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 11:37 am
Lauren says:
Alright well here’s an argument.. so should i leave the Catholic church then? If I’m not allowed with my views then so long CC!!! My children also will not be raised Catholic then if people aren’t allowed to have diversity of interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI
If I’m not allowed to disagree with the Pope and still be a member of the Catholic Church, then so long again!
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
mary kay says:
Lauren,
I would so much rather you ask yourself why you think you are more qualified than 2000 years of saints, scholars, doctors of the church and popes to decide what the Catholic church should be like.
I absolutely am NOT suggesting you leave the Catholic Church. I am asking you to look deep within yourself to find out why you are at odds with it’s teaching. Then I am asking you to research what the Catholic church teaches and why. Then I am asking you to decide whether or not you can meet the church on her terms, or if you will forever be trying to bring her down to yours. And if you sincerely believe that the church is in error then I’m asking you to be obedient and pray the truth will out eventually. Martin Luthers sin was not in pointing out the churches flaws. It was in not trusting that all in good time (or should I say Gods time) the church would come around. Instead, he broke the church, and in doing so broke his end of the covenant made by Jesus. The church will always have problems. But it is human error, not Christs. Christ promised to preserve the church til the end of time, and no matter how much man screws it up, it always come back.
But some things are unchangable. The pope can make human mistakes. But unchangeable law is just that. Unchangeable.
Woman will never be priests (unchangeable, instituted by Christ himself), but priests may be able to marry again someday (changeable law, instituted by man).
We know abortion is wrong because it goes against everything that we have come to know about God. Mary herself appeared to Juan Diego to put a stop to human sacrafice in the aztec culture.
That is why we invoke Our Lady of Guadalupe in the pro life movement. (unchangeable law, given to us by God in the 10 commandments)
Nuns wore habits, then they didn’t, now some do (changeable, instituted by man)
and on and on.
The sacraments cannot be changed. They were instituted by God (Jesus), but which language the mass is said in can be changed.
So you see there is lots of room for diversity, but certain things can never be changed.
The question is, can you accept a higher authority? I hope so, because I believe that you have a LOT to offer our church. Youth, enthusiasm, a sincere desire for the truth, honesty to a fault, leadership qualities. The church needs people like you. But you first have to understand her. She is Christs bride, and as such deserves enormous respect. And nothing, NOTHING, has been made law in the church without enormous discernment by those who are in authority. Every last detail is the way that it is for a reason. Not knowing the reason is not an excuse to ignore the law. Search for the reason to everything you disagree with and see where you come out.
Ask questions, ask more questions, read, ask more questions…
This is why the Church is so awesome, because no matter how much you learn, there is still so much more. You’ll never know it all because the church is a living breathing entity. It is always changing, always growing and we are always gaining new insights so it is never dull. My gosh, there are people who have written volumes on just the last 7 words of Christ. Imagine, 7 words and endless books devoted to their meaning. It boggles the mind…
MK
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
mary kay says:
Lauren,
Some quotes by Bishop Fulton Sheen:
“We always make the fatal mistake of thinking that it is what we do that matters, when really what matter is what we let God do to us. God sent the angel Mary, not to ask her to do something, but to let something be done”.
“The reason, therefore, why some souls emerge purified from catastrophe while other souls come out worse is because the first had ONE in whom they could trust and the second had none but themselves. The atheist, therefore, is properly defined as the person who has no invisible means of support”.
“Never forget that there are only two philosophies to rule your life: the one of the cross, which starts with the fast and ends with the feast. The other of Satan, which starts with the feast and ends with the headache”.
“They do not really hate the Church. They hate only what they mistakenly believe to be the Church.”
“But the general truth still holds true: asume that he is on the quest of the Divine, otherwise he would not think so much about it. Hence never, never, never argue with a fallen away Cahtolic. He may tell you, for example, that he left because he could not believe in Confession. Do not believe it. He left because he refused in his pride to confess his sins. He wants to argue to salve his conscience; but he needs absolution to heal it. He wants to keep religion in the realm of the speculative. What he needs is to have it brought down to the realm of the moral. His difficulty is not with the Creed: it is with the commandments. Having tasted the best he is miserable without it.
We do not help him by telling him why the road he took was wrong. He knows it. He even knows the right road. We can help him best, by going out on the road to meet him and make the return journey easy, for every prodigal wants to get back home”.
“Stunt not your spiritual life by looking for faults. You do not say Shakespeare cannot write because you heard a poor actor butcher the solioquy of Hamlet; you do not reject the beauty of music because you hear an occasional moaner or groaner on the radio; you do not disbelieve in medicine because your doctor has a cold. Give God a chance. Life in the church is an offer, not a demand. It is a gift, not a bargain. God is on the quest for your soul. Whether you will know peace depends on your own will.
“If any man will do the will of him, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself: (Jn 7:17)
“It takes three to make love, not two: you, your spouse, and God. Without God people only succeed in bringing out the worst in one another.”
“If you keep freedom only for yourself, then because it is arbitrary and without standards, you will find it deteriorationg into a defiant self-affirmation. Once all things become allowable, simply because you desire them, you become the slave of your CHOICES. If your self-will decides to drink as much as you please, you soon find not only that you are no longer free not to drink, but that you belong to drink and not drink to you. Boundless liberty is bouldless tyranny”.
“You change your likes and desires when dissatisfied but you never change yourself.”
“As Pascal said: “there are only two kinds of people we can call reasonable: either those who serve God with their whole heart because they know him, or those who search after him with all their heart because they do not know him”.
There is, therefore, some hope for those who are dissatisfied with their choices, and who want. If you do just that, you create a void. Far better it is for you to say: “I am a sinner,” than to say:”I have no need of religion.” The empty can be filled, but the self-intoxicated have no room for God.”
“But Judas did not repent in the true sense of the word. Rather, he had a change of feeling. He repented, but not to Our Lord; he repented unto himself. The latter is only self hatred, and self hatred is suicidal. And the pity of it all was that he might have been St. Judas”.
“There are so many in the world that way: They do not want to be better; they want only to feel better.”
“Probably the worst punishment God can visit upon a soul is to leave it alone.”
“But there are some diseases that kill without the voice of pain. So too with conscience. If it no longer speaks in remorse, think not that you are healthy. Your soul may be dead. Our Lord will answer you nothing then, even when you robe Him as a fool Then the hush about the cross to which you have sent Him will be His last appeal.”
“One of the most revolutionary and as yet unnoticed changes in the postwar world is the role assigned to women. Winning the world to Christ - or winning to anti-Christ - requires playing one of two roles: that of Eve or Mary.”
“Right is still right if nobody is right, and wrong is still wrong if everybody is wrong.”
And lastly, a quote from St. Faustina:
“Here is the tabernacle of your Mercy - Here is the remedy for all our ills. To you O living spring of mercy, all souls are drawn; some like deer, thirsting for your love,…others, exhausted by life, to draw strength.”
She was speaking about Our Lord present in the Holy Eucharist.
Confession and Communion. But confession first. It’s the only way….
MK
T
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
Lauren says:
Can I ask you your thoughts on the Iraq War?
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
Lauren says:
and for the record… i dont see myself as disagreeing with every authority in the church. in fact many in the church agree with me. It is no coincidence the Pope is who he is today, John Paul set it up so it was possible.
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 11:21 pm
Lauren says:
This is a main source for my introspection. http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/part1.html
I’m not saying I agree, but it certainly makes me question.
Comment posted May 26th, 2006 at 11:23 pm
Pansy Moss says:
and for the record… i dont see myself as disagreeing with every authority in the church.
There is somethng you do not understand. You are allowed to disagree, you are allowed to not understand something the Church teaches. There is a difference between though between having confusing thoughts on Church teaching, and 1. condemning the Church on it to others and 2. acting against Church teaching. But if you are confused, you have a responsibility to try to research the Church teaching and understand it.
For example, yes, many Catholics have a hard time with the Church’s teaching on birth control. It is very different to go home to your husband, and talk about your struggles, but still be obedient and not use as opposed to just deciding to say “F*&# that, I’m gonna do what I want and take the pill.” It is one thing to be confused about abortion and to pray for understanding, it is very different to actually promote abortion.
Can I ask you your thoughts on the Iraq War?
I know this is a set up question, (and man girl, don’t you want to have an original idea?), but I will bite.
I am troubled by this situation. I am not pro-war, but I am not evil dictators who torture their people either. I feel that on any side, liberal, conservative, quote from the Pope, I am not getting the whole story, dso I just pray God’s will be done, and that our boys come home safe.
Being confused is not being disobedient to the Pope, because I have never said 1. “oh, the Pope is just wrong about that” 2. I have not acted against anything he said, nor will I ever. If the Pope that we are absolutely not allowed to vote for a candidate that seems to be “pro-war”, I won’t, even if I don’t understand his teaching on the subject.
Lastly, when the Pope spoke about the war, he was not speaking from the Chair. There are issues he speaks on that are Ex-Cathedra or issues on faith and morals which means we are bound to them, and other issues which are literally his two cents and his own opinion and we have a right to disagree. As a rule, I find the Vicar of Christ to have more wisdom than I will ever, so if he says something, I take notice.
Comment posted May 27th, 2006 at 4:32 am
Mary Kay says:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
HOLY MOLY…This is beautiful because it is exactly what we are talking about.
The church of “Lauren”, or the church of “Mary Kay” or the church of “Pansy”….
I have to go to the clinic…it’s 5:46 and I have to be there at 6:30 …so I can’t take near as much time as I’d like right now…but I’ll come back…
Let’s see what Chesterton has to say:
# “There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” (”The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett” Fancies vs. Fads)
# “Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” - ILN, 4/19/30
# “To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it.” - A Short History of England, Ch.10
# “There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions.” - ILN, 1/13/06
# “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.” - Chapter 5, What’s Wrong With The World, 1910
# “These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own.” - ILN 8-11-28
# “The truth is, of course, that the curtness of the Ten Commandments is an evidence, not of the gloom and narrowness of a religion, but, on the contrary, of its liberality and humanity. It is shorter to state the things forbidden than the things permitted: precisely because most things are permitted, and only a few things are forbidden.” - ILN 1-3-20
(THIS ONE ADDRESSES YOUR QUESTION ON CHURCH AUTHORITY AND ALL OF IT’S RULES…)
# “The whole truth is generally the ally of virtue; a half-truth is always the ally of some vice.” - ILN, 6/11/10
# “Truth is sacred; and if you tell the truth too often nobody will believe it.” - ILN, 2/24/06
# “It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.” - The Catholic Church and Conversion
(THESE ARE THE WORDS OF HUMILITY…AS BISHOP SHEEN SAYS, IF WE WEREN’T SINNERS, WE’D HAVE NO NEED OF A SAVIOR…)
# “The voice of the special rebels and prophets, recommending discontent, should, as I have said, sound now and then suddenly, like a trumpet. But the voices of the saints and sages, recommending contentment, should sound unceasingly, like the sea.” - T.P.’s Weekly, Christmas Number, 1910
# “Most modern freedom is at root fear. It is not so much that we are too bold to endure rules; it is rather that we are too timid to endure responsibilities.” - What’s Wrong With the World
(I LOVE THIS ONE…)
# “What we call emancipation is always and of necessity simply the free choice of the soul between one set of limitations and another.” - Daily News12-21-05
(THE SO CALLED FREEDOM TO BE YOURSELF AND DO WHAT YOU WILL HARM YE NONE, IS REALLY JUST ANOTHER SET OF RULES…I OFTEN ASK MY TEENAGE AND YOUNG ADULT BOYS WHY WHEN THEY ARE STRIVING SO HARD TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE DIFFERENT, UNIQUE AND SINGULAR, DO THEY WHERE THE EXACT SAME RIPPED UP JEANS, DIRTY HAIR, GRUNGY SHIRTS AND “SMARTER THAN EVERYONE” ATTITUDE AS EVERY OTHER PERSON CLAIMING TO BE DIFFERENT, UNIQUE AND SINGULAR…”
* “The purpose of Compulsory Education is to deprive the common people of their commonsense.” - ILN, 9/7/29
* “Though the academic authorities are actually proud of conducting everything by means of Examinations, they seldom indulge in what religious people used to descibe as Self-Examination. The consequence is that the modern State has educated its citizens in a series of ephemeral fads.” - Nash’s Pall Mall Magazine. April, 1935
“Religious liberty might be supposed to mean that everybody is free to discuss religion. In practice it means that hardly anybody is allowed to mention it.” - Autobiography, 1937
# “I do not feel any contempt for an atheist, who is often a man limited and constrained by his own logic to a very sad simplification.” (”Babies and Distributism” The Well and the Shallows)
# “The eagle has no liberty; he only has loneliness.” (”The Free Man” A Miscellany of Men)
# “Without authority there is no liberty. Freedom is doomed to destruction at every turn, unless there is a recognized right to freedom. And if there are rights, there is an authority to which we appeal for them.” (G.K.’s Weekly, April 28, 1928)
* “The man of the true religious tradition understands two things: liberty and obedience. The first means knowing what you really want. The second means knowing what you really trust.” (G.K.’s Weekly, August 18, 1928)
(ANOTHER REALLY GOOD ONE…)
Okay, gotta go, gonna be late…
Sure you don’t want to meet me there? River Rd and Rand, right next to Pesches Gardens…Okay, okay - you can stop laughing! Just thought I’d try…
MK
Comment posted May 27th, 2006 at 6:24 am
Mary Kay says:
Lauren,
As for the war in Iraq…
On the one hand, I believe that we got into the war for undisclosed and questionalble reasons. I believe that we were told lies and led to believe that 911 was somehow connected to Iraq and Saddaam, and I believe that we were falsely led to believe that the war on Iraq was to safeguard the United States. I also believe that one day we’re in cahoots with clowns like Saddaam or Osama and the next day they are our enemy and that there are all kinds of hidden agendas and ulterior motives.
I would have felt much more comfortable if the war had been waged solely to free the Iraqui people without any mention of 911 or Osama.
However, I would still have reservations about going into another country to overthrow their government, because if we are going to do this to one government then why not all of them that we disagree with.
The fact that there is oil is Iraq, and it served our best materialistic interests concerns me because a few years before when a poor, black country needed the same kind of “emancipation” and protection, we turned our backs. I’m speaking of Rwanda. Where were we then and is it a coincidence that they were black, poor and had no oil and we did nothing, but for Iraq which is rich, and has oil that we want to control we were suddenly the “helpful” democracy.
Pansy is right. We don’t know who to trust on this issue and the facts are not really facts at all. You’ve got John Stewart, O’reilly, Barbara Striesand, George Clooney, Dick Cheney, the New York Times ad infinitum…and they all say different things.
That said, I still see God’s hand in the whole mess in the way a terrible war started for dubious reasons at best has ended in the possibility of freedom for an oppressed society.
Kind of a wishy washy answer I know, but trying to get to the bottom of this situation gives me a tremendous head ache and I don’t know quite what to believe…
I do know that war of any kind must not be taken lightly and that while I don’t know what is right in this situation, Someone does. God. And those who made the bad choices will be called to task eventually….
By the way, I am against the death penalty, think that the welfare system in our country is a farce and dislike politicians and lawyers on principle…
MK
Comment posted May 27th, 2006 at 1:47 pm
Jocelyn says:
Lauren,
I also attended Loyola and had many questions regarding my faith when I was there. I attended some other faith group meetings and I also had my own interpretations about church teaching and different moral issues.
When I got wrapped with what I felt was right and was more concerned about being politically correct, I found myself to be very miserable. I was at a very deep low and the only thing I could do was pray. I went to Madonna della Strada and sat down to talk with God alone. I really searched for the truth and sincerely wondered what God wanted from me. I prayed everyday and found myself drawn to be close to him even more.
You obviously have many strong beliefs about certain things. It might help if you take your thoughts to God and really ask him what He wants from you and why the Church teaches what she teaches.
I must say, it led me to understand Catholic teaching more fully. I certainly am not as well versed as most scholars and I don’t know my catechism as well as I should. However, I am at peace with everything the church teaches and I realize that the Church that Jesus established has a reason for everything. I also realize that true happiness and peace can only come from following Our Lord and the Church’s teachings.
Mary Kay is an excellent resource for knowledge of what the church really teaches. Try to be more open to why we believe what we believe, especially since you are a Catholic. Open yourself to the sacraments that you are so blessed with and receive them with grace. Obviously there is some reason why Catholics who are obedient to church teaching bother you so much. Ask God and He will somehow show you the way. Don’t leave the church without knowing why she teaches what she teaches, but it’s also important as a Catholic to not put off others from the faith because you can’t accept her teaching.
May God continue to work through you and with you always.
Comment posted May 27th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Mary Kay says:
Lauren and Jocelyn,
Thank you so much for the vote of confidence Jocelyn. You know it’s not that I know so much as much as it is that I am madly in love with my faith. I get so excited and I can’t seem to read or hear enough. It’s like an insatiable hunger…
Lauren, try to remember that on this sight we are not just your average Catholics. We take our faith very seriously and most of us have gone through very similar struggles as yourself.
I myself was heavily (and I emphasize heavily) into witchcraft. Tarot, covens, astrology, the sexual end, the goddess, all of it…
and I took drugs and battled an addiction to cocaine and pot.
I smoked pot every day of my life for seventeen years. Many was the time I was looking at the back of toilets seats in bars hoping to find some left over coke. I was promiscuous and ended up pregnant and unmarried.
God waited very patiently for me, and like Saul to Paul, I had a MAJOR conversion when I was 33. I just celebrated my 25th wedding anniversary, became a grandmother and have six children of my own. Including the first one. He’s the one who just gave me a granddaughter.
I tell you this so you understand that each of us has a story, and not one of us blindly accepted our faith without years of searching. We know where you are on your journey and if we sound arrogant or impatient it is only because we know the Joy at the end of the rainbow that is waiting for you. We can’t wait to welcome you home and can hear all of heaven holding their breath, all the angels and saints and Our Lady…whispering “Go Lauren Go! You can do this…come home…we miss you…”
So we will be patient with you if you will be patient with us…
God Bless,
MK
Comment posted May 27th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
Quinn says:
Lauren said
” If you represent Jesus, I hate Jesus and Jesus should be condemned and never even taken seriously”
Its not news to any of us that you hate Jesus. We figured that much out a long time ago.
Lauren said
“That being said you do not represent Jesus and neither to do .”
That statement didn’t make much sense at the end. But I must confess that after reading it I was practically chortling
Lauren asked
“Besides, you think the church is really right saying we women can’t be priests because we have VAGINAS!?”
No. Having a penis does not make someone more fit to be a pastor. Neither does having more testosterone. Being gifted as a pastor/teacher is what qualifies a person. Their giftedness is what matters, not their gonads.
Lauren asked
“so should i leave the Catholic church then? If I’m not allowed with my views then so long CC!!! My children also will not be raised Catholic then if people aren’t allowed to have diversity of interpretation.”
YES!! Please stay away from any church as long as you promote killing innocent babies, adultery, fornication and any other form of perversity. And make sure your children understand that you are not following any sort of Christian teaching so they can better see the difference between your thinking and that of the Body of Christ.
Comment posted May 27th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
Quinn says:
That guy apolgizing for what he said during his commencement speech was not right. He has nothing to apologize for. Those vile students who cursed at him during his speech are the ones that need to apologize.
This sort of response reminds me of the following from the article Nicer Than God
Christ’s apostles asked Him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard [Your] saying?” (Mat. 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry. How did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: “Let them alone. They are blind,” (Mat. 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christ’s attitude as unloving.
Comment posted May 27th, 2006 at 8:03 pm
Mary Kay says:
Quinn,
Don’t be too hard on Lauren. While her answers are sometimes impulsive and many times harsh, she does none the less keep coming back.
She is searching.
At on time we were all searching.
Because we know better, we are responsible for a more patient and compassionate attitude.
One day Lauren will be on this website coaching future Catholics.
I’m sure when she first had to face her gambling addiction she fought it tooth and nail but today she is facing it head on (KUDOS TO YOU LAUREN). Perhaps one day she will counsel fellow gamblers just as one day she will be on this site couseling lost souls.
I believe in you Lauren…
I think we all do…
The following is one of the above quotes from Bishop Fulton Sheen that I posted earlier…I think it captures the essence of what is going on beautifully, don’t you?
God Bless You Quinn,
and Lauren, keep coming, you’re almost there…
LOVE,
MK
“But the general truth still holds true: asume that he is on the quest of the Divine, otherwise he would not think so much about it. Hence never, never, never argue with a fallen away Cahtolic. He may tell you, for example, that he left because he could not believe in Confession. Do not believe it. He left because he refused in his pride to confess his sins. He wants to argue to salve his conscience; but he needs absolution to heal it. He wants to keep religion in the realm of the speculative. What he needs is to have it brought down to the realm of the moral. His difficulty is not with the Creed: it is with the commandments. Having tasted the best he is miserable without it.
We do not help him by telling him why the road he took was wrong. He knows it. He even knows the right road. We can help him best, by going out on the road to meet him and make the return journey easy, for every prodigal wants to get back home”.
Comment posted May 27th, 2006 at 9:44 pm
Mary Kay says:
Lauren,
Please don’t race through the quotes I’ve posted. I posted everyone of them with you in my mind and heart. Get a cup of tea, sit down, say a small prayer and take each one as if it was a piece of godiva chocolate (or whatever candy you like). Get everything you can out of each one before moving on to the next…
You don’t have to respond to each one…just let them speak to you.
Please?
Thanks, MK
Comment posted May 27th, 2006 at 9:51 pm
Mary Kay says:
Lauren,
2 more things and I’m going to bed. One I just saw your picture on the internet and YOU ARE BREATHTAKING!!!! I just know you are as beautiful inside…
and two: I have a son with bipolar who battled an addiction to every drug imaginable. We almost lost him to suicide. I saw your request for the walk you are doing and I would love to donate but don’t feel comfortable using my credit card online. Any suggestions?
MK
Comment posted May 27th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
mary kay says:
I don’t think Dan apologized for what he said, only tha the was sorry that he offended some people…There is a difference, albiet a very small one…
“I first would like to apologize to all offended by my words.”
Comment posted May 28th, 2006 at 6:06 am
Quinn says:
I just can’t imagine Jesus or any of The Twelve or Paul saying “sorry if I offended anyone”. Can you?
Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are “offended” by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, “Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me” (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when “they were offended at Him” (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). “Shake off the dust from your feet” (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude.
Comment posted May 28th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
Pansy Moss says:
I just can’t imagine Jesus or any of The Twelve or Paul saying “sorry if I offended anyone”. Can you?
Nope.
Like I said, day in and day out, I hear things that are more offensive to my “belief system” and no one apologises.
However, on Open Book in the discussion about tis, many people say there is a time and a place for everything, and this just wasn’t it. Again, part of me agrees but if the crowd had been a truly Catholic crowd, no one would have batted an eye at his words, or thought it was a bad time and place. It simply became a bad time and place because the audience was littered with cafeteria Catholics.
Like I was saying before about things I hear from people, people come up to me at work, ont the street everywhere and make disparaging remarks about the fact that we are expecting number 6. We are talking people asking me out the blue about my birth control choices in the middle of diners. Where is the “time and place” rule there?
Comment posted May 29th, 2006 at 7:16 am
rosie says:
Pansy Moss,
My sister in-law(I have5) just had her sixth baby and at my wedding someone said to her husband “six!?” like they were crazy and all he said was “yeah isn’t it great!?” That really stopped the person in their tracks, they looked really embarassed. Another sister in-law is pregnant with her sixth too! If someone asks you about your birth control I think it makes it the time and place to get into a big explaination about it, after all they asked, right?
Comment posted May 29th, 2006 at 9:59 am
John says:
Pansy Moss said: “However, on Open Book in the discussion about tis, many people say there is a time and a place for everything, and this just wasn’t it. Again, part of me agrees but if the crowd had been a truly Catholic crowd, no one would have batted an eye at his words, or thought it was a bad time and place. It simply became a bad time and place because the audience was littered with cafeteria Catholics.”
Pansy,
I have to disagree. As you point out, many have offered the “It wasn’t the wrong time or the place” rationale, but I’m disinclined to give this argument any credence at all.
Ben was given a platform, and he used it to proclaim some rather unpopular truths. Good for him.
Ben’s commencement speech–or rather, the reaction to the speech–has done more to expose the problems in Catholic higher education in the U. S. than any number of books, articles, seminars, and conferences on Ex Corde Ecclesiae ever could.
Comment posted May 29th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
John says:
Mary Kay said: “I don’t think [Ben] apologized for what he said, only tha the was sorry that he offended some people…There is a difference, albiet a very small one…”
Mary Kay,
I think you’ve hit upon an important distinction.
First, for those who disagree with his decision to apologize, recall, once again, the comment from the Fumare blogger that I included toward the end of this post:
“While I would rather he not have apologized, it reflects that he is a class act and his motivation was not to inflame the audience, though apparently it doesn’t require much to do that.”
Ditto.
Ben’s terse statement struck me as more of a “non-apology apology” than an apology.
I would suspect–and I stress that this is mere speculation on my part–that Ben was coerced by the powers-that-be at UST into making some sort of apology.
Transcripts aren’t released until after graduation, and I’m guessing that he was told that his transcript wouldn’t be released unless and until he issued an apology.
Considering that he’s headed for major seminary at the Pontifical North American College in Rome in a few months, it would have been imprudent of him to hold up that process in any way.
Comment posted May 29th, 2006 at 4:35 pm
Pansy Moss says:
Pansy,
I have to disagree. As you point out, many have offered the “It wasn’t the wrong time or the place” rationale, but I’m disinclined to give this argument any credence at all.
It seems as Catholics, we always have to “be careful” about expressing Catholic truths. I am not saying we should feel that way, as much as we feel pressured to feel that way, or at least I do. But that just might be a side effect of living in the Diocese of Albany.
Comment posted May 29th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
Lauren says:
MK–you’re spot on about Iraq.
Happy Memorial day.. don’t have time to talk bf is waiting for me…
be back tomorrow
Comment posted May 29th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
Lauren says:
Quinn—you are the reason people don’t come to church.
You are the reason I shy away.
Kudos to you on evangelizing.
Comment posted May 29th, 2006 at 10:04 pm
rosie says:
Quinn is hardly the reason people don’t go to church. People who don’t go to church lack discipline and don’t feel they have a moral obligation. I suspect they don’t think about it and don’t really care. If people shy away because they feel guilty or that they feel unwanted they should figure out why and not blame others for their problem. Catholics believe specific things if they didn’t they wouldn’t be catholic it would be like me saying i’m jewish but I believe that Jesus is the son of God. If I were to counsel someone and tell them they should consider an abortion, according to the church i’m no longer a catholic. I think it’s refreshing when people shoot from the hip and they should do it more often.
Comment posted May 29th, 2006 at 11:24 pm
Pansy Moss says:
I think it’s refreshing when people shoot from the hip and they should do it more often.
As a child, when I went to Catholic school, the faith never appealed to me when it was watered down. I kind of saw it as a sort of philosophy-be nice to everyone, Jesus was nice, everyone is nice. Who needs the Church to be nice? I had nuns who rolled their eyes at Catholic teachings without ever explaining them and told me the Real Presence was just symbolic. Correction, prior to 4th grade, I did learn the True Faith, and I loved it. It was a let down when people started telling me it was nothing more than mere superstition.
Then when I was 16 and living in the Fiji islands, an Irish missionary priest handed my family a copy of Fundamentals of Faith by Peter Kreeft. He was so straight to the point (both the priest and Peter Freeft), I wanted to be Catholic again.
Anywho, I do not think we have to constantly tip toe around people who want to reject the faith in the name of being a good Christian always (especially people who have said horrible things like others children should not be born, they hope they come down with horrible, terminal diseases, they should not be allowed choices on anything, they hate Jesus simply because people do not mistreat them, but disagree with them). Being mean is one thing, but being straight or blunt is another.
I have seen more tip toeing in the name of being Christian than I would do around my kids, ex. ” OK, you don’t want to eat your vegetables? No dessert, you know the rules.”
“You don’t want to be Catholic? Don’t be.”
Quinn—you are the reason people don’t come to church.
You are the reason I shy away.
Why is your faith more based on people rather than God? (No offense to the people here), but if it were a popularity contest of what kind of people I like best, I would never be Catholic. But frankly, I don’t do “groups” period. I don’t associate myself with any collective because of the people in it, but because their is reason why that collective suits me. For example, I have voted republican because I am pro-life, but I don’t change my beliefs on issues like the death penalty to make myself “conservative” and fit in. My self-esteem is not based on the crew I hang with, but based on whether or not my daily choices can leave me with a clear conscience.
There are extremely nice, to extremely wretched people in any group in any walk of life. If you base your self-esteem on others, even just one person like a spouse, you will never be happy.
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 4:21 am
mary kay says:
Hey guys,
Don’t get me wrong. Dan was 100% right saying what he did. I just thought his apology was more of a “I’m sorry I offended anyone, because as Catholics none of you should have been offended and the fact that you were makes me sorry…for you…”
As for Lauren, I think we all have to ask ourselves what her true objective is. And I believe that she is sincere in her desire to understand the Catholic church. Therefore, I am willing to overlook her knee jerk reactions because I realize that the closer she gets the harder satan is going to try to keep her from her goal. I know her comments can be offensive and inciteful, but the fact that she keeps coming back tells me something important. She really does want to know the truth.
Unfortunately, because she is not well aquainted with the Church she often makes assumptions based on imcompetent sources (she keeps mentioning a priest that agrees with her), and lack of knowledge.
It is like she is trying to take a test in PolySci advanced when she never took PolySci 101. She is trying to argue higher truths when she hasn’t passed Catholocism 101. She is not alone. I have helped to guide a number of people back to church and all of them sounded just like Lauren. It is a defense mechanism and while Lauren often opens her mouth without thinking I expect more from us.
Yes Jesus offended people, but his INTENTION was never to do so. His intention was to change minds and hearts and he never stopped giving second (and third and fourth etc.) chances. Look at Saul…now that was an ornery character. But God did not wash his hands and walk away. Granted he cracked him upside the head, but he didn’t quit…believe me, many is the time I have wanted to put Lauren over my knee…
And I think when Lauren says that our harsh reactions are the reason she wants to leave the church, we have to realize that like a 2 year old (not calling you a 2 year old Lauren, just mean that you are in the infancy of becoming a Catholic) she needs patience and guidance, not ridicule and derision. I remember my baby days, I was very fragile and had to be handled with great care. Remember, there is a soul at stake, and that soul has in essence asked for our help. We are obligated to be the kind of Christians that we keep claiming to be. Merciful and gentle.
There are difinitely times to be harsh and strong, but this is not one of them. Lauren still needs milk, and is not ready for solid food. Many of you say you have six and more kids (as do I) and you wouldn’t react the same way to your 2 year olds bad behavior as you would to your 8 year olds. When Lauren is 8 she’ll will be able to handle a lot more discipline than now.
We have a great opportunity here. And I am willing to swallow some of my impulsive reactions for the sake of Laurens Soul.
I think we all need to pray for her…I mean like a special task force. How about some time devoted to Lauren at an adoration chapel. I’ve already spent some hours there for her…or offering up a mass or two…or a couple of rosaries… I think Lauren is worth it. I’d love to have her on the team.
MK
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 6:02 am
mary kay says:
oops…I meant Ben, not Dan…
MK
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 6:06 am
mary kay says:
“We do not help him by telling him why the road he took was wrong. He knows it. He even knows the right road. We can help him best, by going out on the road to meet him and make the return journey easy, for every prodigal wants to get back home”.”
Bishop Fulton Sheen
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 7:00 am
Pansy Moss says:
but his INTENTION was never to do so
I don’t think anyone here ever intended on offending anyone, Lauren or otherwise. The words may have been straight to the point, and even harsh sounding, but saying “if you hate the Church, then don’t be Catholic, leave us to our beliefs” is not the same as ” If you represent Jesus, I hate Jesus and Jesus should be condemned and never even taken seriously” or “LMFAO”. I’m sure if there was an intent to offend, I am sure the replies would be more like “why don’t you just go jump in a lake” or some of the harsher sentiments that were expressed…There is a difference between bluntness and purposely trying to hurt or offend someone.
If someone has a different belief system then I do, I don’t curse at, laugh at their beliefs, wish horrible diseases on them, and I expect the same treatment in return. Regardless of religious affiliation, human beings know how to treat human beings with respect, or should. Not thinking they are capable of respect simply because they are not a practicing Catholic is almost insulting to the intelligence of that person, because it is almost like saying since they are not Catholic, they are incapable of acting like a normal person. If someone who thinks differently wants to ask questions and find answers respectfully, anyone would here would love to share their faith with them. No one wants to be insulted or derided and it not Christ like to seek out insults and put up with them. Or as Jesus would say “throw our pearls before swine”. As Catholics, we will be insulted by simply trying to live out our faith-that is a given, and it is Christ like to not turn our backs on what we know is right in the face of that.
Like you said, if one of my children started screaming at me demanding something, I would tell them outright “you are not getting anything if you speak to me like that”. With my 18 month old, I would give them more leeway. But Lauren is not a 2 year old. She may be in the baby stages of understanding the Church, but not a child when it comes to knowing decent respect.
Anyway, I am not saying you should not attempt to communicate with her, or if you feel it is your mission to do so, that doing such a thing is wrong. If it is your style to dialogue with people because you see in them what you saw in you many years ago, then maybe that is your gift from God and your calling, but I don’t think it is wrong either when someone says to her in so many words “oh, give it a rest”.
That said I will continue to pray for her as I do all lost souls (especially my own).
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 7:55 am
Pansy Moss says:
Also Mary Kay, I wanted to clarify, when I was talking abut tip toeing, I didn’t necessarily mean you, although I used Lauren’s words as examples because, well, I found them to be harsh examples of what I meant at the moment.
I tend to think of more things on Church administrative levels then personal ones, like when I was on a Parish Council, and every meeting was devoted on how to get non-Catholics in the Church by acting like malls, then on what to do to address the needs of the congregation that sat in the pews every Sunday. The excuse for this was to show how “non-exclusionary” they were. I probably should have told that story instead of using Laurens sentiments.
Anyway, I think the example of Mr. Kessler is more about the problem with what is happening to our Catholic culture, then personal debates with people here and there. I am sorry if you misunderstood and felt it was directed at you.
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 8:06 am
mary kay says:
Pansy,
I took no offense at what you said. I just feel that Lauren is so confused and that like a child she seeks attention by making loud noises. I worry that by us reacting with criticism she will turn us off all together.
Of course it would be better if she was respectful instead of bratty but I really believe she doesn’t see herself the way we do. With her group of friends, she probably finds that inflammatory remarks work. And satan IS working on her. She gets mad before she thinks.
As for the state of our Catholic church, please don’t think that I am wimpy or wishy-washy when it comes to speaking my mind…on the contrary (as my husband and children will confirm) I can be very caustic and sarcastic. Sometimes to the embarrassment of my family…I just think that Lauren needs understanding and patience. If you read some of my earliest posts you’ll see that I didn’t start off quite so gently…
I mean it when I say that I often want to put her over my knee and spank her until she behaves…or send her to her room until she can talk nice..but for now, I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt…
Our Church is in a very sad place right now. 90% of France is Catholic but only 5% practice.
Our priests (like the one that Lauren mentions) are telling us lies and not standing up for the truth.
The majority of Catholics don’t believe in the real presence.
They don’t go to confession.
They don’t believe that missing mass is a mortal sin.
They don’t believe in mortal sin period.
But Lauren isn’t a cafeteria Catholic. Lauren is so far from being Catholic she might as well be Hindu. Which is why she can so easily disparage our belief system.
IF you look up her profile on her website you would freak at how she describes herself. It is as anti-catholic as you can get.
But she is here. And she is part of this conversation. Many a girl at the abortion clinic had come in so angry she makes Lauren look like Pollyanna, but we have turned her around and she has left the clininc without having the abortion.
I think that a persons beligerence is directly related to how much sin is in their soul. More sin, more beligerent. If Lauren would go to confession and begin fresh, I think we would see a different person. The real Lauen…
And don’t worry about me…I know you guys are all awesome Catholics and I don’t take any offense to the things that are said.
You’re all out their fighting the good fight, and it’s because of people like you that we will win…of course, Jesus might help a little (LOL) (see, sarcasm…)
MK
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 8:41 am
mary kay says:
“Labor rights, affordable healthcare, womens’ rights, gay and lesbian rights, Media reform, countering Republican propaganda.”
Laurens profile…obviously I’m not talking about labor rights, or healthcare, or media reform…and I realize that countering Republican propaganda refers to abortion, gay marraige, gay rights and all the other things that republicans stand for. (By the way if it weren’t for abortion and related issues, I don’t know that I would be republican either…)
MK
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 8:46 am
Lucy says:
Why are people who oppose the Catholic church attending schools that are blatantly supported by the Catholic church? I mean, I believe that people who are supportive of the Catholic method should be free to open and operate schools; charge as much or as little to anyone they wish to admit; and as an institution operated: presumably for the purpose of perpetuating the message of the Catholic church, utilize it as a platform to study the message of the Catholic church. If they wish to have a student stand up and say things that I personally find to be outlandish and outrageous, then they have found the perfect platform to do so in. As it is a Catholic school any student who chooses to attend would likely be counted as wise to anticipate that within their time there they will be exposed to Catholic ideas. If they are not in favor of Catholic ideas then it is my suggestion that they find a school to attend that does not promote Catholic ideas, or prepare to endure what will likely seem to be torment.
This isn’t that difficult. Nobody is being forced to attend a Catholic church. In fact, most Non-Catholics who do choose to attend do so because they are Private Institutions, and it is generally found that private institutions provide better educations. Not all Private Institutions are Religious however. The University of Chicago is a superb representation of a secular private representation. There are also excellent state supported schools, that cannot be religious, that are known for providing outstanding educations in varying fields. For what it is worth, the school could have written his speech, and asked that he give it, and have been fully within their rights. The students at the graduation who left, had every right to leave, but should not have been surprised to have heard commentaries that promote what the Catholic Church counts as values post graduation.
If one does not wish to promote the Catholic Church the answer is easy. DO NOT PROMOTE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!!! Do not apply to, or attend any Catholic schools. Please prove yourself to be high enough on the food chain to recognize that they are connected. That providing funding to one provides funding for the other. IF YOU DO PROMOTE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!!!! I don’t want to hear about it when you don’t like it when they say things that the Catholic Church says. Which by the way you paid for when you paid for your tuition. Or did you fail to notice that this was not buying room and board? That this was not paying for books. No, that money pays the salaries of people to further the Catholic Agenda. Expect the Catholic agenda to be furthered if you attend and pay tuition at a Catholic school. Expect to hear speeches that say that women using birth control are selfish.
Expect it to come from a young man who majored in Philosopphy and Buisness and came out to berate himself as well as the rest of the crowd; displaying that he has properly learned to loathe himself as well as the rest of humanity. Pat yourself on the back for funding this, and shame yourself for having anticipated something else. What else was expected? One does not cook a Roast only to find Chocolate Cake in the oven.
No, if you pay for a Catholic education you will get a Catholic education. Please do not complain when it happens. If Loyolla isn’t promoting faith based education, Lauren, then it is shocking. Of course it is my understanding that none escape without a religion class, at least those were the rules at one point.
Lauren is absolutely correct in her observation that not all Catholics think alike. Of course, Lauren would have been correct if she had replaced Catholic with any other religion, or sect of religion, or simply said people. Which means that one should probably consider investigating how the people think at the school that is being attended. There are people who are competely comfortable surrounded by people who think differently from them, that promote freedom for abortion, or are absolutely opposed to it, and are simply interested in what kind of Chemistry Program the school in question offers. There are other people who will not be able to properly function in an atmosphere the thinking is drastically opposed to their own. Prior to enrollment is a good time to figure this out; certainly prior to graduation.
I agree that Mr. Kessler should not have apologized, though I am glad to see it was not under diress -presumably-. I am naturally opposed to what he had to say, however, I believe that he is fully entitled to the rights to express his viewpoints, as long as the school sponsoring the platform for the purpose has not previously opposed such expression. If the school opposed his expression, they should not provide him the microphone. Certainly such a school would have silenced him had he spoke on topics that are in opposition to the Catholic churches stance on issues. His fellow students should have understood that. In fact, they have given the impression that they did understand that, however, what they have missed, is that the school can be done. Private Universities are bound by different regulations then Public Universities. Of course, it is arguable that the same speech should have been permitted at a Public University, it is arguable, Lauren, on the same grounds that make it arguable that it should not be permitted.
Bottom Line. If you do not like the Catholic church. Do not fund the Catholic Church. If you fund the Catholic church, expect it to flourish. Expect this speech.
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 11:23 am
Pansy Moss says:
I took no offense at what you said.
OK, I’m glad.
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
Lauren says:
Mary kay says:
“Labor rights, affordable healthcare, womens’ rights, gay and lesbian rights, Media reform, countering Republican propaganda.”
Laurens profile…obviously I’m not talking about labor rights, or healthcare, or media reform…and I realize that countering Republican propaganda refers to abortion, gay marraige, gay rights and all the other things that republicans stand for. (By the way if it weren’t for abortion and related issues, I don’t know that I would be republican either…)
MK
Republican propaganda, for the record, refers to the fact that these people have convinced you that they too are pro-life. Bush is as pro-life as I am. All he cares about is a group of right-wing extremists piggy backing on all of his other causes: the War in Iraq, warantless wiretapping, widespread corruption, and the “war” on marriage. It’s so blatantly obvious it nearly smacks us all in the face. Gay and lesbian rights means that we no longer discriminate against a people because they don’t see eye to eye with us. You think because your religion believes one thing that you should be able to legislate against someone else? That’s wrong and it’s arrogant. Have you ever read Chinuea Achebe’s Things Fall Apart?
Luckily, I do not pay my tuition :)… TO think that Catholic ideals are solely based in a woman’s body is so wrong I can’t think straight. I went to Loyola because it is based in social justice and I appreciate that. The religious right doesn’t control our school any more than the leftist pacisfists. For this, I am grateful. To think that you embody the sole interpretation of Catholicism is so ridiculously arrogant. I come from a family of Catholics.. My grandfather was in the seminary when he met my grandmother who was a cloistered nun. When I was in CCD, I saw the biggest Catholic hypocrites. Pro-life, gun-touting, racist, snobs. Maybe this doesn’t describe you but it describes a lot of the jerks at my church.
Quinn should be ashamed of himself, spreading such vitriol and hatred. I cannot imagine a priest ever talking that way
And btw, not everyone who teaches at Loyola is Catholic.. just thought you should know that.
“Not making it up as you go along thinking “well the Pope will agree with me someday.””
Yes I can do that if I want. It’s a free country. The Pope at one time was offering indulgences, would it have been wrong of me to stand up then? Blind following is so extremely dangerous and foolish. If the Church tomorrow tells you to eat worms instead of the Host, would you?
“Again, if you substituted your own words with the terms “Brandeis” and “Jew” instead of Catholic, or “Howard U” and black and said “Brandeis is so intolerant and ignorant because they are sooo Jewish…” or “Howard is soooo ignorant or intolerant because they are soooo black there”, you would sound like a bigot and a fool.”
Definitely not. Did I ever say Loyola was intolerant because it is soooo Catholic. I do think it is very Catholic.. It makes you confront Catholicism with an open mind and not a closed one. It makes you face the truth about the Bible and see if you can still find inspiration in it. It doesn’t spoon feed you catholicism, it gives it to you it tough chunks, and if you choose to swallow then you are really faithful.. Being faithful is not the same thing as closign your eyes and swallowing. Being faithful is searching. I am searching and you have burned me at the stake for it. I’m like a sponge and all of the intolerance I have experienced on this post alone, I have soaked it up, took it in, and now I have my thoughts.
I’m sorry that you hate what I call buzzwords for diversity. My good Catholic friend loves Muslims.. she loves them so much she calls them ragheads. oh and let’s not forget the Buddhist dotheads.
“There is a radio commercial for PP that plays on the hip hop station with a man talking about “birth control is power” (so racist and genocidal).”
Lmao. I’m sorry I cannot even respond to this.. You mean B96? Lmao. it is so like genocidal!!! No deary, genocidal is what’s going on in the Sudan, not 16 year olds looking for condoms.
“Stay away from sources that confuse you and go straight to the horses mouth…”
Sources that confuse are the best sources to get. So should I ignore what history teachers say about Hitler iwth regards to Bush? Should I ignore the history of Rwanda when thinking about the Sudan. Criticism is not a lower source… Criticism is a higher source.
“you are more likely to misunderstand or dismiss what you disagree with. ”
With all due respect… I don’t want to force feed myself something I probably dont agree with.. If I agree wiht it, I agree with it, if I don’t, I don’t. I’m not going to close my eyes to justice because someone tells me that I must. This is the very essence of dangerous religion and cults.
Also there are a lot of smart and good Catholics who disagree with the fact that Jesus said women can’t be priests.. Quite the contrary.
g2g write more later
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 11:39 am
mary kay says:
Lauren,
***”Republican propaganda, for the record, refers to the fact that these people have convinced you that they too are pro-life. Bush is as pro-life as I am. All he cares about is a group of right-wing extremists piggy backing on all of his other causes:”
OKay girl, sit down…I couldn’t agree with you more…however we keep voting for these guys based on the pro life issue because because whether they are sincere or not, the results are the same. 5 catholics (albiet not all practicing)on the suprememe court. The decision in North Dakota, the closing of the clinics in Mississippi, all these things possible because he doesn’t fight us on them…
***” Gay and lesbian rights means that we no longer discriminate against a people because they don’t see eye to eye with us. You think because your religion believes one thing that you should be able to legislate against someone else? That’s wrong and it’s arrogant. ”
Again I agree. While I disagree on moral grounds with the consumation of a homosexual relationship, I believe that it is just that - a moral issue. Not a criminal one. Heck if I believed that everyone who behaved immorally should be locked up, I’d have to cuff myself. I do believe that sexual relations between couples of the same sex is a sin, but I also believe that sexual relations between unmarried couples of the opposite sex is a sin. The sin is in the behavior, not the desire. And neither one should be criminal. Criminal behavior is when another persons rights are being violated (the unalienable right to life). This should be prohibited. But homosexual behavior is something between God and the individual. That is a God given right. I can’t take it away. Nor should I. I can persuade someone to view it differently, but I can’t forbid it. Not so with abortion, because an innocent persons rights are being violated.
By the way, while I am against homosexual couples marrying, I am not against them having some sort of civil union to benefit in things like insurance and tax breaks…and if a celibate homosexual man or woman wants to adopt a child, I say fine. I would object if they were living as a couple however. I struggle with the argument that it would be better to be raised by a gay couple than raised in an institution. Which is why I would concede that a celebate gay person could make an excellent parent. The reason I object to an actively gay couple, is the same reasoning I would object to a sexually active unmarried heterosexual couple adopting a child. I, unlike many pro lifers that I have spoken with, believe that many homosexuals are born that way. And it’s a fine way to be…but that doesn’t mean that it has to be acted on. Because that is like saying that the only thing that makes a person be defined as gay is that they prefer sex with others of the same sex. I don’t think that that is true. I think there are all kinds of things that go hand in hand with being born homosexual. Like being creative and sensitive and much more in tune with what we call their feminine side. I empathize with the call to celibacy but do believe that it is the right way to go. I would not however force it. That being said, I also believe that being gay is becoming trendy and that that degrades people who are born that way. Homosexuals have a rough road to walk, and the idea that people who aren’t created that way but choose it cuz it’s fashionable is an affront to those homosexuals struggling with their orientation. And I don’t mean struggling because of the way they are treated by society (although I think to look down on anybody for being different is deplorable) but because all of us want to fit in (even if we say we don’t) and being different than the majority is always difficult.
***” To think that you embody the sole interpretation of Catholicism is so ridiculously arrogant
and if I believed for a moment that this was how I felt I would hang my head in shame. Nobody emodies the sole enterpretation of Catholicism. Except Jesus. That’s why we have the catechism. A final authority if you will…
***”Quinn should be ashamed of himself, spreading such vitriol and hatred. I cannot imagine a priest ever talking that way”
Quinn is not a catholic, and I have already voiced my displeasure with his views elsewhere. So has Eric.
***”And btw, not everyone who teaches at Loyola is Catholic.. just thought you should know that.”
My kids go to Catholic grade school and the teachers are not catholic there either. I question whether the head of the CCD program is Catholic either. (she claims she is) but that is for another day….
***”Yes I can do that if I want. It’s a free country. The Pope at one time was offering indulgences, would it have been wrong of me to stand up then?”
Of course you can. In the parameter of politics you can say anything that you want. It is a free country. But (and here’s the rub - separation of church and state) in the Catholic church you may not dissent without risking excommunication. Remember when I said that the shepherd would be held responsible for misleading the sheep? This is a perfect example. If you bought those indulgences you wouldn’t be responsible for the wrongness of it…the pope who sold them would (and probably is) If however, in good conscience you recognized that it was wrong but bought them anyway, then you would be held accountable also…(later I want to read to you what “good conscience means) Because you see the conscience is the final word on everything. Don’t get excited though, because as I said I want to explain “conscience” later…straight from (you guessed it…the catechism)…but not now…
***”If the Church tomorrow tells you to eat worms instead of the Host, would you?”
Of course not, because Christ instituted the Eucharist and was very clear about what was to be used. Unleavened bread and water mixed with wine. Worms are just not acceptable. How do I know…here it comes…it’s in the catechism. As well as the new testament. But even some Catholic priests are trying to say that you can use grape juice and banana bread. (and they will be called to task later). But you see, this is an unchangeable law, like women priests, because it was instituted by Jesus Himself,and no one…not a lay person, not a protestant, not a priest, and no not even the pope, and mess with it. If my conscience told me that worms would do, I would have to follow my little checklist to make sure that my conscience had been formed right….and if I did my homework I would know that it had not, and that worms could not be used…
***”“Again, if you substituted your own words with the terms “Brandeis” and “Jew” instead of Catholic, or “Howard U” and black and said “Brandeis is so intolerant and ignorant because they are sooo Jewish…” or “Howard is soooo ignorant or intolerant because they are soooo black there”, you would sound like a bigot and a fool.”
I’m sorry - and i’m not being sarcastic here - but I don’t know what that means…who or what are Brandeis or Howard U? please explain…I’m feeling kind of stupid now…
***”I am searching and you have burned me at the stake for it.”
That’s not fair Lauren. I have stood up for you precisely because you are searching and not here just to antagonize, quite a number of times. I have spent hours replying to you and wake up every morning and come to my computer to see what Lauren had to say. I have taken you seriously and have chastised anyone who hasn’t. Because I believe you are sincere and worth it….
***”I’m like a sponge and all of the intolerance I have experienced on this post alone, I have soaked it up, took it in, and now I have my thoughts.”
Just like with anything else, you have to sift through a lot of stuff to arrive at the truth. If someone has said something to you that isn’t christian then feel free to throw it out… That just tells you something about them, not about the faith. How do I know? Read the catechism. We are to model ourselves after Jesus. I admit that in the beginning (and I believe it was all in good spirit) we were debating heavily, but when I realized that you were sincere and not just here to pick a fight, I curbed my sarcasm…perhaps I should never have used it at all but there is something called righteous anger. At first I was defending my church, but I see now that you weren’t really attacking the church. You were defending what you saw as attacks on you personally…forgive me. I misread you. Right now, I’m going at it with someone named Lucy. And I regret that I don’t see her attacks as a sincere desire to know the truth, but just as a way to upset the apple cart. But time will tell, and sometimes you have to get heated to force the truth out. I have no animosity towards Lucy…
***”I’m sorry that you hate what I call buzzwords for diversity. My good Catholic friend loves Muslims.. she loves them so much she calls them ragheads. oh and let’s not forget the Buddhist dotheads.”
I don’t think I am the one who said that about you…and anyone who refers to muslims and hindus as ragheads and dotheads is not a true catholic. I teach muslim and hindu children and have nothing but respect for them, their parents and their faiths.
***”“There is a radio commercial for PP that plays on the hip hop station with a man talking about “birth control is power” (so racist and genocidal)”
this wasn’t me either…I don’t care for hip hop…and have never heard this ad. I will say however that 1/3 of african americans have been aborted in this country since roe vs wade. And Dr. Edward Allred (owner of 31 abortion clinics in California and 2 in Illinois) has this to say:
“Population control is too important to be stopped by some right-wing pro-life types. Take the new influx of Hispanic immigrants. Their lack of respect for democracy and social order is frightening. I hope I can do something to stem that tide; I’d set upa cllinic in Mexico for free if I could…The survival of our society could be at stake…When a sullen black woman of 17 or 18 can decide to have a baby and get welfare and food stamps and become a burden to all of us it’s time to stop.”
So much for choice…
This man owns 33 clinics. That’s the largest chain in California. That’s a major racist attitude held by a man providing the “service” of abortion.
I think that’s where the genocide argument comes from…but I don’t know because that wasn’t me…
***”“Stay away from sources that confuse you and go straight to the horses mouth…”
Sources that confuse are the best sources to get.”
Sources that confuse only confuse you. It makes it much harder to discern the truth. When I said go to the horses mouth I was referring to the catechism if you have questions about the church. Because a priest can give you erroneous information, lay catholics (whether they are grandmothers, neighbors, or friends can give you erroneous information. But the catechism only gives you Catholic law. It is the final authority…
***”So should I ignore what history teachers say about Hitler iwth regards to Bush? Should I ignore the history of Rwanda when thinking about the Sudan. Criticism is not a lower source… Criticism is a higher source.”
Other than the fact that Rwanda isn’t a source, I don’t know how to address this because I don’t understand what you mean. What about teachers, hitler and bush?!?!?…I am sooo confused…LOL
There were also a lot of good and smart people who thought black should be slaves. Or Jews should be dead…but they were wrong. Being good is not the same as being right.
**”With all due respect… I don’t want to force feed myself something I probably dont agree with.. If I agree wiht it, I agree with it, if I don’t, I don’t. I’m not going to close my eyes to justice because someone tells me that I must.”
The real danger is relying on only yourself…again I refer to GA, NA and AA. Recognize a higher power, but you can’t do it by yourself. I’m not calling you arrogant, so don’t get defensive, but it is a kind of arrogant attitude to believe that you are the final authority on anything, let alone something as important as your soul. You may make the final decision, but you (nor I) will ever be the final authority on anything of importance. The first step to being wise is to admit you know nothing…
I’m sure there are a lot of typos in here, sorry. I typed it once and it got erased and I feel like I have been typing for hours…oh look, I have been typing for hours…..
Take Care,
I can’t wait to hear from you,
MK
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 5:27 pm
mary kay says:
Lauren,
One more thing…Gosh i’m tired…
“Also there are a lot of smart and good Catholics who disagree with the fact that Jesus said women can’t be priests.”
The reason that a lot of smart and good Catholics disagree with this is because they don’t understand it…
Jesus was a man. He only chose male apostles. Woman followed him everywhere, but the holy spirit did not descend upon them when Jesus intstituted the priesthood. He could have but He didn’t.
This is because priests represent Jesus on earth. The church represents His bride. Priests marry the church (that’s why they wear wedding rings). Women (accocrding to the Catholic church) can’t marry women. Therefore women can’t represent Jesus (male) and marry the church (female)…does this make sense?
Women (and men), who disagree are just uninformed or stamping their foot because they believe they are being short changed. The same argument holds true for abortion. The real issue isn’t about a womens right to her own body and the right to choose. The real issue is about taking a human life.
Nobody is saying women are lesser human beings. Or woman aren’t as good as men. But in the context of motherhood they are different than men and therefore must play a different BUT EQUAL role. We must respect the life that God entrusts to us and believe that He knows something we don’t. I would be just as against abortion if it was men that got pregnant. And men aren’t better or more important than women when it comes to the priesthood. They just have a different role. Being a priest is not the hightest honor in the catholic church. Being a saint is. And both men and women can be those…
MK
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 6:37 pm
Pansy Moss says:
Lauren,
Again, the rest of your post, like the lines up above, are responses to what you read into the replys as opposed to what was actually said.
I’m sorry Mary Kay, this girl is not searching, she comes here because she has a need to abuse people. She comes here because she gets off on drama and controversy, and responding to her, IMO, is exactly the same as being codependant to an alcoholic. She keeps trying to drag people into debates by changing the topics without even reading what people have said. She is not looking, but attempting to cause discord among a blog that would have none were she not here.
Comment posted June 1st, 2006 at 5:22 am
mary kay says:
Pansy,
What does IMO mean?
I don’t know Pansy…
Since Lauren and I have started to talk instead of argue she has not been abusive at all…
I want to give her the benefit of the doubt because if I’m wrong I have nothing to lose but time, but if I’m right and Lauren can see the truth and come home…well, her soul was worth all those hours.
I just remember how deep was the Mercy that got me here today and I remember how I was when I was on the other side…
Anger often hides other emotions, and Lauren is so young. She claims that we have been spoon fed a line of bologne, but look at what her generation has grown up with. She is an abortion survivor. Instead of the Brady Bunch she has be fed on Sex an the City and Friends. (I remember when Love American Style was forbidden in our house because it was so crude, and how about Lucy, Ricky, Laura and Rob having to sleep in separate beds). The other day my mom was over and we were talking about how bad TV has gotten. Just then the golden girls came on and I said “Why do you think I watch the Golden Girls all day”…but I realized that all 4 of those 60 and over women sleep with men that they are not married to…even Sophia…imagine, the Golden Girls!!!!!
My point is that Lauren and others in her generation have grown up in a society that can no longer tell right from wrong…it is so enmired in sin…that we can’t possibly be surprised when they act amorally…
And then you have to ask yourself…Who is praying for these kids? If not their parents then it is possible that in their entire lives nobody has said a single prayer for them, or offered up a single sacrifice or a single mass on their behalf…I can’t imagine where I would be without all the thousands of hours of prayer that my mother and father said for me…
So, I won’t give up on Lauren until she goes away on her own. Even then I will continue to pray for her. If she doesn’t get it today, then maybe my words will stay with her and in 10 years, or 20, she will remember that someone cared enough to take her to task…I’ve grown very fond of Lauren…I can’t give up now.
And if I’m a fool because of that…well, so be it…I’ve been worse…believe me much worse. I’d rather be a fool on the side of God, then be smart and turn my back on the Laurens of the world…
Although, you’re right, she is a pistol, isn’t she…
MK
Comment posted June 1st, 2006 at 6:11 am
Young Christian Woman says:
I hope it is not a requirement to be a Catholic here–is it?
Comment posted June 1st, 2006 at 8:46 am
John says:
Young Christian Woman said: “I hope it is not a requirement to be a Catholic here–is it?”
YCW,
By all means, no.
Comment posted June 1st, 2006 at 9:28 am
mary kay says:
Oh gosh YWC,
I am so sorry if I gave you that impression…
You are a great asset to this sight.
I was referring to how Quinn told Lauren to basically go home, we didn’t want her in our church, and I was pointing out that Quinn did not represent me or the Catholic church as he was not Catholic and by his comments not very Christian either.
Please, don’t go away…
YOU ARE WELCOME, WELCOME, WELCOME!!!!!!!
and you are a beautiful example of what a christian should be…
MK
Comment posted June 1st, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Pansy Moss says:
MK,
What does IMO mean?
I don’t know Pansy…
Sorry, “in my opinion”.
Well, keep fighting the good fight.
Comment posted June 2nd, 2006 at 5:23 am
Young Christian Woman says:
For my part, I have never seen so many Catholics who were so alive in their faith before–God bless you all.
Comment posted June 2nd, 2006 at 8:49 pm
Pansy Moss says:
For my part, I have never seen so many Catholics who were so alive in their faith before–God bless you all.
Thank you.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 4:58 am
Lucy says:
I am seeking for someone to define life. Not to explain when they believe life begins, but to define what they understand it to be. For people that define themselves as Pro-life this should be a simple task. After all, what are you Pro.
What is life.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 4:57 pm
Pete says:
Lauren says…
“Republican propaganda, for the record, refers to the fact that these people have convinced you that they too are pro-life. Bush is as pro-life as I am. All he cares about is a group of right-wing extremists piggy backing on all of his other causes: the War in Iraq, warantless wiretapping, widespread corruption, and the “war” on marriage. It’s so blatantly obvious it nearly smacks us all in the face.”
I have voted Republican in the past and now consider myself an Independent. I vote “Catholic” and not Republican or Democrat. Fr. Peter West put together a list of Pro-Life Accomplishments by President Bush as of 5-18–04. I think you will be shocked at the list. Also, remember President Bush elected which looks like two solid Supreme Court Justices in Roberts and Alito. This is HUGE! Here is the website…
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1140835/posts
As a sidenote I wanted everyone to listen to this live Chastity Education talk by JASON EVERT to Catholic School High School students. It is one of the top talks I have ever heard! To listen just go to the website below and scroll to Catholic High School Chastity Talk! This talk is outstanding! You will be truly amazed….
http://www.pureloveclub.com/seminars/index.php?id=3
Comment posted June 7th, 2006 at 7:58 am
the upside to acting says:
the upside to acting…
Programming a computer can be performed in one of numerous languages, ranging from a higher-level language to writing directly in low-level…
Comment posted January 5th, 2007 at 7:56 pm