Programming a computer can be performed in one of numerous languages, ranging from a higher-level language to writing directly in low-level…

“Republican propaganda, for the record, refers to the fact that these people have convinced you that they too are pro-life. Bush is as pro-life as I am. All he cares about is a group of right-wing extremists piggy backing on all of his other causes: the War in Iraq, warantless wiretapping, widespread corruption, and the “war” on marriage. It’s so blatantly obvious it nearly smacks us all in the face.”

I have voted Republican in the past and now consider myself an Independent. I vote “Catholic” and not Republican or Democrat. Fr. Peter West put together a list of Pro-Life Accomplishments by President Bush as of 5-18–04. I think you will be shocked at the list. Also, remember President Bush elected which looks like two solid Supreme Court Justices in Roberts and Alito. This is HUGE! Here is the website…

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1140835/posts

As a sidenote I wanted everyone to listen to this live Chastity Education talk by JASON EVERT to Catholic School High School students. It is one of the top talks I have ever heard! To listen just go to the website below and scroll to Catholic High School Chastity Talk! This talk is outstanding! You will be truly amazed….

http://www.pureloveclub.com/seminars/index.php?id=3

What is life.

Thank you.

For my part, I have never seen so many Catholics who were so alive in their faith before–God bless you all.

What does IMO mean?

I don’t know Pansy…

Sorry, “in my opinion”.

Well, keep fighting the good fight.

I am so sorry if I gave you that impression…
You are a great asset to this sight.

I was referring to how Quinn told Lauren to basically go home, we didn’t want her in our church, and I was pointing out that Quinn did not represent me or the Catholic church as he was not Catholic and by his comments not very Christian either.

Please, don’t go away…

YOU ARE WELCOME, WELCOME, WELCOME!!!!!!!
and you are a beautiful example of what a christian should be…

MK

YCW,

By all means, no.

What does IMO mean?

I don’t know Pansy…
Since Lauren and I have started to talk instead of argue she has not been abusive at all…
I want to give her the benefit of the doubt because if I’m wrong I have nothing to lose but time, but if I’m right and Lauren can see the truth and come home…well, her soul was worth all those hours.

I just remember how deep was the Mercy that got me here today and I remember how I was when I was on the other side…

Anger often hides other emotions, and Lauren is so young. She claims that we have been spoon fed a line of bologne, but look at what her generation has grown up with. She is an abortion survivor. Instead of the Brady Bunch she has be fed on Sex an the City and Friends. (I remember when Love American Style was forbidden in our house because it was so crude, and how about Lucy, Ricky, Laura and Rob having to sleep in separate beds). The other day my mom was over and we were talking about how bad TV has gotten. Just then the golden girls came on and I said “Why do you think I watch the Golden Girls all day”…but I realized that all 4 of those 60 and over women sleep with men that they are not married to…even Sophia…imagine, the Golden Girls!!!!!

My point is that Lauren and others in her generation have grown up in a society that can no longer tell right from wrong…it is so enmired in sin…that we can’t possibly be surprised when they act amorally…

And then you have to ask yourself…Who is praying for these kids? If not their parents then it is possible that in their entire lives nobody has said a single prayer for them, or offered up a single sacrifice or a single mass on their behalf…I can’t imagine where I would be without all the thousands of hours of prayer that my mother and father said for me…

So, I won’t give up on Lauren until she goes away on her own. Even then I will continue to pray for her. If she doesn’t get it today, then maybe my words will stay with her and in 10 years, or 20, she will remember that someone cared enough to take her to task…I’ve grown very fond of Lauren…I can’t give up now.

And if I’m a fool because of that…well, so be it…I’ve been worse…believe me much worse. I’d rather be a fool on the side of God, then be smart and turn my back on the Laurens of the world…

Although, you’re right, she is a pistol, isn’t she…

MK

I’m sorry Mary Kay, this girl is not searching, she comes here because she has a need to abuse people. She comes here because she gets off on drama and controversy, and responding to her, IMO, is exactly the same as being codependant to an alcoholic. She keeps trying to drag people into debates by changing the topics without even reading what people have said. She is not looking, but attempting to cause discord among a blog that would have none were she not here.

“Also there are a lot of smart and good Catholics who disagree with the fact that Jesus said women can’t be priests.”

The reason that a lot of smart and good Catholics disagree with this is because they don’t understand it…

Jesus was a man. He only chose male apostles. Woman followed him everywhere, but the holy spirit did not descend upon them when Jesus intstituted the priesthood. He could have but He didn’t.

This is because priests represent Jesus on earth. The church represents His bride. Priests marry the church (that’s why they wear wedding rings). Women (accocrding to the Catholic church) can’t marry women. Therefore women can’t represent Jesus (male) and marry the church (female)…does this make sense?

Women (and men), who disagree are just uninformed or stamping their foot because they believe they are being short changed. The same argument holds true for abortion. The real issue isn’t about a womens right to her own body and the right to choose. The real issue is about taking a human life.

Nobody is saying women are lesser human beings. Or woman aren’t as good as men. But in the context of motherhood they are different than men and therefore must play a different BUT EQUAL role. We must respect the life that God entrusts to us and believe that He knows something we don’t. I would be just as against abortion if it was men that got pregnant. And men aren’t better or more important than women when it comes to the priesthood. They just have a different role. Being a priest is not the hightest honor in the catholic church. Being a saint is. And both men and women can be those…

MK

***”Republican propaganda, for the record, refers to the fact that these people have convinced you that they too are pro-life. Bush is as pro-life as I am. All he cares about is a group of right-wing extremists piggy backing on all of his other causes:”

OKay girl, sit down…I couldn’t agree with you more…however we keep voting for these guys based on the pro life issue because because whether they are sincere or not, the results are the same. 5 catholics (albiet not all practicing)on the suprememe court. The decision in North Dakota, the closing of the clinics in Mississippi, all these things possible because he doesn’t fight us on them…

***” Gay and lesbian rights means that we no longer discriminate against a people because they don’t see eye to eye with us. You think because your religion believes one thing that you should be able to legislate against someone else? That’s wrong and it’s arrogant. ”

Again I agree. While I disagree on moral grounds with the consumation of a homosexual relationship, I believe that it is just that – a moral issue. Not a criminal one. Heck if I believed that everyone who behaved immorally should be locked up, I’d have to cuff myself. I do believe that sexual relations between couples of the same sex is a sin, but I also believe that sexual relations between unmarried couples of the opposite sex is a sin. The sin is in the behavior, not the desire. And neither one should be criminal. Criminal behavior is when another persons rights are being violated (the unalienable right to life). This should be prohibited. But homosexual behavior is something between God and the individual. That is a God given right. I can’t take it away. Nor should I. I can persuade someone to view it differently, but I can’t forbid it. Not so with abortion, because an innocent persons rights are being violated.

By the way, while I am against homosexual couples marrying, I am not against them having some sort of civil union to benefit in things like insurance and tax breaks…and if a celibate homosexual man or woman wants to adopt a child, I say fine. I would object if they were living as a couple however. I struggle with the argument that it would be better to be raised by a gay couple than raised in an institution. Which is why I would concede that a celebate gay person could make an excellent parent. The reason I object to an actively gay couple, is the same reasoning I would object to a sexually active unmarried heterosexual couple adopting a child. I, unlike many pro lifers that I have spoken with, believe that many homosexuals are born that way. And it’s a fine way to be…but that doesn’t mean that it has to be acted on. Because that is like saying that the only thing that makes a person be defined as gay is that they prefer sex with others of the same sex. I don’t think that that is true. I think there are all kinds of things that go hand in hand with being born homosexual. Like being creative and sensitive and much more in tune with what we call their feminine side. I empathize with the call to celibacy but do believe that it is the right way to go. I would not however force it. That being said, I also believe that being gay is becoming trendy and that that degrades people who are born that way. Homosexuals have a rough road to walk, and the idea that people who aren’t created that way but choose it cuz it’s fashionable is an affront to those homosexuals struggling with their orientation. And I don’t mean struggling because of the way they are treated by society (although I think to look down on anybody for being different is deplorable) but because all of us want to fit in (even if we say we don’t) and being different than the majority is always difficult.

***” To think that you embody the sole interpretation of Catholicism is so ridiculously arrogant

and if I believed for a moment that this was how I felt I would hang my head in shame. Nobody emodies the sole enterpretation of Catholicism. Except Jesus. That’s why we have the catechism. A final authority if you will…

***”Quinn should be ashamed of himself, spreading such vitriol and hatred. I cannot imagine a priest ever talking that way”

Quinn is not a catholic, and I have already voiced my displeasure with his views elsewhere. So has Eric.

***”And btw, not everyone who teaches at Loyola is Catholic.. just thought you should know that.”

My kids go to Catholic grade school and the teachers are not catholic there either. I question whether the head of the CCD program is Catholic either. (she claims she is) but that is for another day….

***”Yes I can do that if I want. It’s a free country. The Pope at one time was offering indulgences, would it have been wrong of me to stand up then?”

Of course you can. In the parameter of politics you can say anything that you want. It is a free country. But (and here’s the rub – separation of church and state) in the Catholic church you may not dissent without risking excommunication. Remember when I said that the shepherd would be held responsible for misleading the sheep? This is a perfect example. If you bought those indulgences you wouldn’t be responsible for the wrongness of it…the pope who sold them would (and probably is) If however, in good conscience you recognized that it was wrong but bought them anyway, then you would be held accountable also…(later I want to read to you what “good conscience means) Because you see the conscience is the final word on everything. Don’t get excited though, because as I said I want to explain “conscience” later…straight from (you guessed it…the catechism)…but not now…

***”If the Church tomorrow tells you to eat worms instead of the Host, would you?”

Of course not, because Christ instituted the Eucharist and was very clear about what was to be used. Unleavened bread and water mixed with wine. Worms are just not acceptable. How do I know…here it comes…it’s in the catechism. As well as the new testament. But even some Catholic priests are trying to say that you can use grape juice and banana bread. (and they will be called to task later). But you see, this is an unchangeable law, like women priests, because it was instituted by Jesus Himself,and no one…not a lay person, not a protestant, not a priest, and no not even the pope, and mess with it. If my conscience told me that worms would do, I would have to follow my little checklist to make sure that my conscience had been formed right….and if I did my homework I would know that it had not, and that worms could not be used…

***”“Again, if you substituted your own words with the terms “Brandeis” and “Jew” instead of Catholic, or “Howard U” and black and said “Brandeis is so intolerant and ignorant because they are sooo Jewish…” or “Howard is soooo ignorant or intolerant because they are soooo black there”, you would sound like a bigot and a fool.”

I’m sorry – and i’m not being sarcastic here – but I don’t know what that means…who or what are Brandeis or Howard U? please explain…I’m feeling kind of stupid now…

***”I am searching and you have burned me at the stake for it.”

That’s not fair Lauren. I have stood up for you precisely because you are searching and not here just to antagonize, quite a number of times. I have spent hours replying to you and wake up every morning and come to my computer to see what Lauren had to say. I have taken you seriously and have chastised anyone who hasn’t. Because I believe you are sincere and worth it….

***”I’m like a sponge and all of the intolerance I have experienced on this post alone, I have soaked it up, took it in, and now I have my thoughts.”

Just like with anything else, you have to sift through a lot of stuff to arrive at the truth. If someone has said something to you that isn’t christian then feel free to throw it out… That just tells you something about them, not about the faith. How do I know? Read the catechism. We are to model ourselves after Jesus. I admit that in the beginning (and I believe it was all in good spirit) we were debating heavily, but when I realized that you were sincere and not just here to pick a fight, I curbed my sarcasm…perhaps I should never have used it at all but there is something called righteous anger. At first I was defending my church, but I see now that you weren’t really attacking the church. You were defending what you saw as attacks on you personally…forgive me. I misread you. Right now, I’m going at it with someone named Lucy. And I regret that I don’t see her attacks as a sincere desire to know the truth, but just as a way to upset the apple cart. But time will tell, and sometimes you have to get heated to force the truth out. I have no animosity towards Lucy…

***”I’m sorry that you hate what I call buzzwords for diversity. My good Catholic friend loves Muslims.. she loves them so much she calls them ragheads. oh and let’s not forget the Buddhist dotheads.”

I don’t think I am the one who said that about you…and anyone who refers to muslims and hindus as ragheads and dotheads is not a true catholic. I teach muslim and hindu children and have nothing but respect for them, their parents and their faiths.

***”“There is a radio commercial for PP that plays on the hip hop station with a man talking about “birth control is power” (so racist and genocidal)”

this wasn’t me either…I don’t care for hip hop…and have never heard this ad. I will say however that 1/3 of african americans have been aborted in this country since roe vs wade. And Dr. Edward Allred (owner of 31 abortion clinics in California and 2 in Illinois) has this to say:
“Population control is too important to be stopped by some right-wing pro-life types. Take the new influx of Hispanic immigrants. Their lack of respect for democracy and social order is frightening. I hope I can do something to stem that tide; I’d set upa cllinic in Mexico for free if I could…The survival of our society could be at stake…When a sullen black woman of 17 or 18 can decide to have a baby and get welfare and food stamps and become a burden to all of us it’s time to stop.”

So much for choice…

This man owns 33 clinics. That’s the largest chain in California. That’s a major racist attitude held by a man providing the “service” of abortion.

I think that’s where the genocide argument comes from…but I don’t know because that wasn’t me…

***”“Stay away from sources that confuse you and go straight to the horses mouth…”

Sources that confuse are the best sources to get.”

Sources that confuse only confuse you. It makes it much harder to discern the truth. When I said go to the horses mouth I was referring to the catechism if you have questions about the church. Because a priest can give you erroneous information, lay catholics (whether they are grandmothers, neighbors, or friends can give you erroneous information. But the catechism only gives you Catholic law. It is the final authority…

***”So should I ignore what history teachers say about Hitler iwth regards to Bush? Should I ignore the history of Rwanda when thinking about the Sudan. Criticism is not a lower source… Criticism is a higher source.”

Other than the fact that Rwanda isn’t a source, I don’t know how to address this because I don’t understand what you mean. What about teachers, hitler and bush?!?!?…I am sooo confused…LOL

There were also a lot of good and smart people who thought black should be slaves. Or Jews should be dead…but they were wrong. Being good is not the same as being right.

**”With all due respect… I don’t want to force feed myself something I probably dont agree with.. If I agree wiht it, I agree with it, if I don’t, I don’t. I’m not going to close my eyes to justice because someone tells me that I must.”

The real danger is relying on only yourself…again I refer to GA, NA and AA. Recognize a higher power, but you can’t do it by yourself. I’m not calling you arrogant, so don’t get defensive, but it is a kind of arrogant attitude to believe that you are the final authority on anything, let alone something as important as your soul. You may make the final decision, but you (nor I) will ever be the final authority on anything of importance. The first step to being wise is to admit you know nothing…

I’m sure there are a lot of typos in here, sorry. I typed it once and it got erased and I feel like I have been typing for hours…oh look, I have been typing for hours…..

Take Care,
I can’t wait to hear from you,
MK

“Labor rights, affordable healthcare, womens’ rights, gay and lesbian rights, Media reform, countering Republican propaganda.”

Laurens profile…obviously I’m not talking about labor rights, or healthcare, or media reform…and I realize that countering Republican propaganda refers to abortion, gay marraige, gay rights and all the other things that republicans stand for. (By the way if it weren’t for abortion and related issues, I don’t know that I would be republican either…)
MK

Republican propaganda, for the record, refers to the fact that these people have convinced you that they too are pro-life. Bush is as pro-life as I am. All he cares about is a group of right-wing extremists piggy backing on all of his other causes: the War in Iraq, warantless wiretapping, widespread corruption, and the “war” on marriage. It’s so blatantly obvious it nearly smacks us all in the face. Gay and lesbian rights means that we no longer discriminate against a people because they don’t see eye to eye with us. You think because your religion believes one thing that you should be able to legislate against someone else? That’s wrong and it’s arrogant. Have you ever read Chinuea Achebe’s Things Fall Apart?

Luckily, I do not pay my tuition … TO think that Catholic ideals are solely based in a woman’s body is so wrong I can’t think straight. I went to Loyola because it is based in social justice and I appreciate that. The religious right doesn’t control our school any more than the leftist pacisfists. For this, I am grateful. To think that you embody the sole interpretation of Catholicism is so ridiculously arrogant. I come from a family of Catholics.. My grandfather was in the seminary when he met my grandmother who was a cloistered nun. When I was in CCD, I saw the biggest Catholic hypocrites. Pro-life, gun-touting, racist, snobs. Maybe this doesn’t describe you but it describes a lot of the jerks at my church.

Quinn should be ashamed of himself, spreading such vitriol and hatred. I cannot imagine a priest ever talking that way

And btw, not everyone who teaches at Loyola is Catholic.. just thought you should know that.

“Not making it up as you go along thinking “well the Pope will agree with me someday.””

Yes I can do that if I want. It’s a free country. The Pope at one time was offering indulgences, would it have been wrong of me to stand up then? Blind following is so extremely dangerous and foolish. If the Church tomorrow tells you to eat worms instead of the Host, would you?

“Again, if you substituted your own words with the terms “Brandeis” and “Jew” instead of Catholic, or “Howard U” and black and said “Brandeis is so intolerant and ignorant because they are sooo Jewish…” or “Howard is soooo ignorant or intolerant because they are soooo black there”, you would sound like a bigot and a fool.”

Definitely not. Did I ever say Loyola was intolerant because it is soooo Catholic. I do think it is very Catholic.. It makes you confront Catholicism with an open mind and not a closed one. It makes you face the truth about the Bible and see if you can still find inspiration in it. It doesn’t spoon feed you catholicism, it gives it to you it tough chunks, and if you choose to swallow then you are really faithful.. Being faithful is not the same thing as closign your eyes and swallowing. Being faithful is searching. I am searching and you have burned me at the stake for it. I’m like a sponge and all of the intolerance I have experienced on this post alone, I have soaked it up, took it in, and now I have my thoughts.

I’m sorry that you hate what I call buzzwords for diversity. My good Catholic friend loves Muslims.. she loves them so much she calls them ragheads. oh and let’s not forget the Buddhist dotheads.

“There is a radio commercial for PP that plays on the hip hop station with a man talking about “birth control is power” (so racist and genocidal).”

Lmao. I’m sorry I cannot even respond to this.. You mean B96? Lmao. it is so like genocidal!!! No deary, genocidal is what’s going on in the Sudan, not 16 year olds looking for condoms.

“Stay away from sources that confuse you and go straight to the horses mouth…”

Sources that confuse are the best sources to get. So should I ignore what history teachers say about Hitler iwth regards to Bush? Should I ignore the history of Rwanda when thinking about the Sudan. Criticism is not a lower source… Criticism is a higher source.

“you are more likely to misunderstand or dismiss what you disagree with. ”

With all due respect… I don’t want to force feed myself something I probably dont agree with.. If I agree wiht it, I agree with it, if I don’t, I don’t. I’m not going to close my eyes to justice because someone tells me that I must. This is the very essence of dangerous religion and cults.

Also there are a lot of smart and good Catholics who disagree with the fact that Jesus said women can’t be priests.. Quite the contrary.
g2g write more later

OK, I’m glad.

This isn’t that difficult. Nobody is being forced to attend a Catholic church. In fact, most Non-Catholics who do choose to attend do so because they are Private Institutions, and it is generally found that private institutions provide better educations. Not all Private Institutions are Religious however. The University of Chicago is a superb representation of a secular private representation. There are also excellent state supported schools, that cannot be religious, that are known for providing outstanding educations in varying fields. For what it is worth, the school could have written his speech, and asked that he give it, and have been fully within their rights. The students at the graduation who left, had every right to leave, but should not have been surprised to have heard commentaries that promote what the Catholic Church counts as values post graduation.

If one does not wish to promote the Catholic Church the answer is easy. DO NOT PROMOTE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!!! Do not apply to, or attend any Catholic schools. Please prove yourself to be high enough on the food chain to recognize that they are connected. That providing funding to one provides funding for the other. IF YOU DO PROMOTE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!!!! I don’t want to hear about it when you don’t like it when they say things that the Catholic Church says. Which by the way you paid for when you paid for your tuition. Or did you fail to notice that this was not buying room and board? That this was not paying for books. No, that money pays the salaries of people to further the Catholic Agenda. Expect the Catholic agenda to be furthered if you attend and pay tuition at a Catholic school. Expect to hear speeches that say that women using birth control are selfish.

Expect it to come from a young man who majored in Philosopphy and Buisness and came out to berate himself as well as the rest of the crowd; displaying that he has properly learned to loathe himself as well as the rest of humanity. Pat yourself on the back for funding this, and shame yourself for having anticipated something else. What else was expected? One does not cook a Roast only to find Chocolate Cake in the oven.

No, if you pay for a Catholic education you will get a Catholic education. Please do not complain when it happens. If Loyolla isn’t promoting faith based education, Lauren, then it is shocking. Of course it is my understanding that none escape without a religion class, at least those were the rules at one point.

Lauren is absolutely correct in her observation that not all Catholics think alike. Of course, Lauren would have been correct if she had replaced Catholic with any other religion, or sect of religion, or simply said people. Which means that one should probably consider investigating how the people think at the school that is being attended. There are people who are competely comfortable surrounded by people who think differently from them, that promote freedom for abortion, or are absolutely opposed to it, and are simply interested in what kind of Chemistry Program the school in question offers. There are other people who will not be able to properly function in an atmosphere the thinking is drastically opposed to their own. Prior to enrollment is a good time to figure this out; certainly prior to graduation.

I agree that Mr. Kessler should not have apologized, though I am glad to see it was not under diress -presumably-. I am naturally opposed to what he had to say, however, I believe that he is fully entitled to the rights to express his viewpoints, as long as the school sponsoring the platform for the purpose has not previously opposed such expression. If the school opposed his expression, they should not provide him the microphone. Certainly such a school would have silenced him had he spoke on topics that are in opposition to the Catholic churches stance on issues. His fellow students should have understood that. In fact, they have given the impression that they did understand that, however, what they have missed, is that the school can be done. Private Universities are bound by different regulations then Public Universities. Of course, it is arguable that the same speech should have been permitted at a Public University, it is arguable, Lauren, on the same grounds that make it arguable that it should not be permitted.

Bottom Line. If you do not like the Catholic church. Do not fund the Catholic Church. If you fund the Catholic church, expect it to flourish. Expect this speech.

Laurens profile…obviously I’m not talking about labor rights, or healthcare, or media reform…and I realize that countering Republican propaganda refers to abortion, gay marraige, gay rights and all the other things that republicans stand for. (By the way if it weren’t for abortion and related issues, I don’t know that I would be republican either…)
MK

I took no offense at what you said. I just feel that Lauren is so confused and that like a child she seeks attention by making loud noises. I worry that by us reacting with criticism she will turn us off all together.

Of course it would be better if she was respectful instead of bratty but I really believe she doesn’t see herself the way we do. With her group of friends, she probably finds that inflammatory remarks work. And satan IS working on her. She gets mad before she thinks.

As for the state of our Catholic church, please don’t think that I am wimpy or wishy-washy when it comes to speaking my mind…on the contrary (as my husband and children will confirm) I can be very caustic and sarcastic. Sometimes to the embarrassment of my family…I just think that Lauren needs understanding and patience. If you read some of my earliest posts you’ll see that I didn’t start off quite so gently…

I mean it when I say that I often want to put her over my knee and spank her until she behaves…or send her to her room until she can talk nice..but for now, I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt…

Our Church is in a very sad place right now. 90% of France is Catholic but only 5% practice.
Our priests (like the one that Lauren mentions) are telling us lies and not standing up for the truth.
The majority of Catholics don’t believe in the real presence.
They don’t go to confession.
They don’t believe that missing mass is a mortal sin.
They don’t believe in mortal sin period.

But Lauren isn’t a cafeteria Catholic. Lauren is so far from being Catholic she might as well be Hindu. Which is why she can so easily disparage our belief system.

IF you look up her profile on her website you would freak at how she describes herself. It is as anti-catholic as you can get.

But she is here. And she is part of this conversation. Many a girl at the abortion clinic had come in so angry she makes Lauren look like Pollyanna, but we have turned her around and she has left the clininc without having the abortion.

I think that a persons beligerence is directly related to how much sin is in their soul. More sin, more beligerent. If Lauren would go to confession and begin fresh, I think we would see a different person. The real Lauen…

And don’t worry about me…I know you guys are all awesome Catholics and I don’t take any offense to the things that are said.
You’re all out their fighting the good fight, and it’s because of people like you that we will win…of course, Jesus might help a little (LOL) (see, sarcasm…)

MK

I tend to think of more things on Church administrative levels then personal ones, like when I was on a Parish Council, and every meeting was devoted on how to get non-Catholics in the Church by acting like malls, then on what to do to address the needs of the congregation that sat in the pews every Sunday. The excuse for this was to show how “non-exclusionary” they were. I probably should have told that story instead of using Laurens sentiments.

Anyway, I think the example of Mr. Kessler is more about the problem with what is happening to our Catholic culture, then personal debates with people here and there. I am sorry if you misunderstood and felt it was directed at you.

I don’t think anyone here ever intended on offending anyone, Lauren or otherwise. The words may have been straight to the point, and even harsh sounding, but saying “if you hate the Church, then don’t be Catholic, leave us to our beliefs” is not the same as ” If you represent Jesus, I hate Jesus and Jesus should be condemned and never even taken seriously” or “LMFAO”. I’m sure if there was an intent to offend, I am sure the replies would be more like “why don’t you just go jump in a lake” or some of the harsher sentiments that were expressed…There is a difference between bluntness and purposely trying to hurt or offend someone.

If someone has a different belief system then I do, I don’t curse at, laugh at their beliefs, wish horrible diseases on them, and I expect the same treatment in return. Regardless of religious affiliation, human beings know how to treat human beings with respect, or should. Not thinking they are capable of respect simply because they are not a practicing Catholic is almost insulting to the intelligence of that person, because it is almost like saying since they are not Catholic, they are incapable of acting like a normal person. If someone who thinks differently wants to ask questions and find answers respectfully, anyone would here would love to share their faith with them. No one wants to be insulted or derided and it not Christ like to seek out insults and put up with them. Or as Jesus would say “throw our pearls before swine”. As Catholics, we will be insulted by simply trying to live out our faith-that is a given, and it is Christ like to not turn our backs on what we know is right in the face of that.

Like you said, if one of my children started screaming at me demanding something, I would tell them outright “you are not getting anything if you speak to me like that”. With my 18 month old, I would give them more leeway. But Lauren is not a 2 year old. She may be in the baby stages of understanding the Church, but not a child when it comes to knowing decent respect.

Anyway, I am not saying you should not attempt to communicate with her, or if you feel it is your mission to do so, that doing such a thing is wrong. If it is your style to dialogue with people because you see in them what you saw in you many years ago, then maybe that is your gift from God and your calling, but I don’t think it is wrong either when someone says to her in so many words “oh, give it a rest”.

That said I will continue to pray for her as I do all lost souls (especially my own).