How Much Do You Know About Roe?
— Posted by John (June 2, 2006 at 5:01 pm)
We couldn’t let this week pass without posting on a significant op-ed that appeared in this Tuesday’s Chicago Sun-Times.
The appearance of John O’Sullivan’s article, “Do you really know our abortion law?” in a major daily newspaper is quite a coup, as untold thousands of people learned for the first time how radical the Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton decisions really were.
Here’s a sample:
Most Americans, let alone most European sophisticates, have no idea that the landmark Supreme Court decision, Roe vs. Wade, establishing a constitutional right to abortion, means that a woman can obtain an abortion right up to the moment of her baby’s birth. When this claim is advanced, they point out that Roe specifically insists that states may regulate abortion in the second trimester and prohibit it in the third trimester.
But Roe also states that states can neither ban nor regulate abortion in cases where a doctor certifies that a woman’s life or health would be adversely affected. And in a second Supreme Court judgment, Doe vs. Bolton, delivered that same day, Justice Harry Blackmun wrote that the doctor’s medical judgment should be exercised “in the light of all factors — physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman’s age — relevant to the well-being of the patient.” In brief: unfettered choice posing as a clinical decision.
Roe and Doe together allow a woman and her doctor to have a legal abortion for any reason at any time before birth, and arguably even during birth. The courts have confirmed this in countless cases, but especially in those striking down state and federal laws to prohibit or regulate “partial birth abortion” — i.e., the procedure in which a baby is partly delivered and, while in the birth canal, has his or her skull crushed and his or her brains sucked out.
Most Americans don’t know this is the legal. If they did, they would oppose it. A Gallup Poll in 2003 found that 68 percent of Americans thought that abortion should be “generally illegal” in the second trimester, let alone the third. This popular opposition is growing slowly but steadily.
Today the single most accurate way of describing the opinion of the American people is as follows: “Most Americans oppose most abortions.”
Also of interest: Blogger Timothy P. Carney’s work in progress titled Pro-choice Criticisms of Roe
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Lucy says:
D&E’s. Dialation and Extraction. It’s a procedure that the anti abortion crowd has dubbed a partial birth abortion in effort to obtain an emotional reaction from the unimformed, as most shock value pursuits are it is overwhelmingly successful. People reel in horror, including Pro-Choicers, at the idea that such things are done. Of course ignorance is the key. The reality is that less than 1% of abortions are D&E’s. They are used only in extreme circumstances, the mothers life has to be endangered. As the late term abortion is already a threat to the mothers life the observed threat has to be greater than the abortion procedure. These are commonly conducted when we are speaking of a still birth, which if conducted normally would endanger the mothers life. The practice of deflating the skull of the fetus is done to lower the threat to the mother.
It is ignored that women who seek abortions do not do so without serious consideration. As the pregnancy progresses the risk to the mothers life do to the abortion increases. Most women who terminate the pregnancy because they do not want to continue it will do so within the first three months, and most within the first two. As the Pregnancy advances the percentage of pregnant women who obtain abortions decreases, the amount of women who have abortions due to reasons other than medical reasons also falls. Thus the less than 1%. Women who reach that stage of a pregnancy generally have remained pregnant because they wished to. It is a devastating reality for them to realize that events have arisen that may prevent them from seeing the pregnancy through. These reasons are relatively limited to health of mother or health of child.
The mentality that imagines that a woman in her 6th or 7th or so forth month simply wakes up and changes her mind is monstrous. It exposes a clear lack of understanding regarding the turmoil any woman experiences when making this decision at any stage of the pregnancy, nevermind towards the end.
There are other factors that you have missed regarding Roe Vs. Wade that are problematic. The idea the womans rights to her body are effective only if the state can’t benefit from the removal should probably cause a problem for anyone who values their freedom.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 1:44 am
mary kay says:
Lucy,
You should be a stand-up comic…
MK
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 6:07 am
Lucy says:
Once again Mary Kay,
It is good to see that you are such a wonderful and kind person. You are very sensitive and have properly avoided any post I have made that would have required you to actually give a response to a topic. Everything I said in the post above is true. It is in fact also logical. Does it bother you to look at the facts. Does it cause you to choke on your sarcastic tongue? Are you still helping the women? Would you like to try an intelligent response for once or do you consider that beneath you? I’m just curious, no rush. I was just wondering what about your behavior makes it not the behavior of a bully.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 9:08 am
mary kay says:
LUCY SAYS:
Mary Kay,
You’ve not provided any examples of me doing any of the things you’ve accused me of. Pointing out when you are wrong is something that has to be done. I don’t quite know what you were anticipating, when people disagree it means they think that the other is wrong. Are you unaccustomed to being disagreed with? Perhaps, but I certainly find you disagreeable. Were you hoping I was coming here to find out why I was wrong. I provide a problem. If you wish to sway me that you are correct it will take actual thought and work. A joke right. I have no doubt that you are thinking that I haven’t given any demonstration of thought or work in this. Of course you’d like to just ignore that the barage of posts attempting to intimidate me by asking me to question my methods of discussion serve no purpose but to avoid the question. That your only response to me is to inform me that I have somehow offended you, or spoken to you as if I know something, not bowing to you and pretending that somehow you have offered some brilliant display of wisdom.
I am not going to scroll through posts, playing a game of cut and paste with the offensive manner in which you have addressed me. This isn’t actually about you. This is about something real. This is about those of us that wish to retain the right to control our bodies and mind. There is more at stake here than whether or not I think you are nice. I don’t have time to be bothered to help you learn to speak civily. I don’t have time to help you feel better about being disagreed with. Now if you were looking for validation I’m afraid I am not the source you should come to. I can’t actually find any validation for your desire to strip a woman of the right to control her mind and body. That is all I am interested in. I’m sorry if you think that any of this is about you. The only way this has anything to do with you is that you will by default reap the benefits when justice prevails and women retain the right to choose what to do with their bodies. You will also suffer the consequences if your side should prevail.
I said,
However, an attempt should be made.
I think that an explanation of how life is defined would be appropriate. I hope you don’t mind if I ask you to respond first.
Someone interested in an actual dialogue might have considered answering that question. Of course, people on sites such as this tend to avoid this question like the plague.
Someone interested in an actual dialogue might have considered answering that question. Of course, people on sites such as this tend to avoid this question like the plague.
There, let’s avoid the suspense. I’ll pull it out as something I’ve said that you will find belittling in order to fuel a tirade of useless accusations in effort to avoid the question.
Please, feel free to walk away the self assured ‘bigger and better person’ It would certainly be easier than actually answering the question wouldn’t it. I won’t suspect a thing. I, for my part will allow you to believe that I think that I should be ashamed. Questioning your stance and all. Obviously I should give you unquestioned access to my body and mind.
Lucy seems to think that us pro lifers are never willing to discuss when life begins. I’m am very tired of Lucy and am no longer going to dialogue with her. I have better things to do than be berated by a woman who can’t discuss anything without a tone of complete hatred. But I do think that the question she asks is one that we are all familiar with…
I moved her post here thinking more people would see it, as the post it was on has been talked into the ground. Feel free to pick up where I left off, but I’m through.
MK
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 3:30 pm
mary kay says:
Mary Kay says:
Lucy seems to think that us pro lifers are never willing to discuss when life begins. I’m am very tired of Lucy and am no longer going to dialogue with her. I have better things to do than be berated by a woman who can’t discuss anything without a tone of complete hatred. But I do think that the question she asks is one that we are all familiar with…
I moved her post here thinking more people would see it, as the post it was on has been talked into the ground. Feel free to pick up where I left off, but I’m through.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 3:32 pm
Young Christian Woman says:
Lucy said:
The reality is that less than 1% of abortions are D&E’s.
What I find interesting about this statistic is that it is similar to the number of abortions where women truly did not have a choice in becoming pregnant: rape and incest. Yet pro-choice-to-kill-infants proponents use this small group to try to prove that abortion needs to be legal to give women a choice.
Your arguments with regards to semantics are unconvincing. Abortion advocates naturally choose to call the procedure something reflecting what happens to the woman: she is dilated and her baby is extracted. However, it is equally accurate to refer to what happens to the fetus: it is partially removed from the mother (as it would be in a birthing process) before it is killed. The fact that few are done, or that they aren’t called “partial birth abortions” by those who practice them, is irrelevant to the brutality of the procedure. The term “partial birth abortion” also uses words average people are more likely to understand. It may be used for the same reason many would say “I had my appendix removed” rather than “I had an appendectomy.”
Lucy said: They are used only in extreme circumstances, the mothers life has to be endangered.
Then why did doctors argue before Congress that it is never medically necessary? Should I believe them or Lucy, some random person on the internet whose credentials I do not know?
These are commonly conducted when we are speaking of a still birth, which if conducted normally would endanger the mothers life.
I have tried to avoid commenting on your grammar, but here it impedes the meaning of your sentence, I believe. By using a comma in this sentence, you make “which if conducted normally would endanger the [mother’s] life” a nonrestrictive clause. That would mean that it was extra information or an explanation, and you would be implying that a still birth is always a danger to a mother’s life. This is not true. I have read stories about people who still chose to undergo a normal birth process when their child had already died. Without the comma, the aforementioned clause would be restrictive, because it restricts what you mean by a still birth—you mean only “a still birth which if conducted normally would endanger the mother’s life.”
Of course, this idea is pretty ridiculous. Some abortionists and those who worked with them have testified that infants being killed in this manner showed signs of life—before the scissors were stabbed into their skulls, at least. Not to mention that no one would be concerned about this procedure if it involved babies who were already dead.
These reasons are relatively limited to health of mother or health of child.
Well then, it’s not all for still births, is it? Why would it ever be better to kill the child on its way into the world than to just induce labor or perform a C-section than let it be born? There’s probably more risk of perforating the birth canal with the scissors than in bringing the skull through intact.
Hmm… the health of the child is better served by sucking out his or her brain than by letting him or her be born completely and giving him or her a chance? Oh, wait, no, that’s a euphemism for eugenics—the killing or sterilization of those deemed “unfit.” You’re saying that handicapped people are better off dead than alive, right? I could understand if the baby was somehow in danger and had to be delivered early. My nephew was born early partially because his mother was ill. But it’s stretching things to say that killing an infant is treatment. Are you from Oregon, perhaps? Do you also think it’s okay to refuse “treatment” like food or water to an infant with Downs Syndrome who is born all the way (head too)?
Maybe the infant would die anyway—but you and I will die sometime too. I know where I’m going then. Lucy, did you know you can be sure of that too? Jesus was killed on the cross and took the punishment for the sins of everyone in the world. All we have to do is accept his free offer of eternal life. Our debt has already been paid in full, whether we accept it or not. I have received this gift, and Jesus is at this moment extending it to you as well. No one knows how much time they have, be they children or adults. I just returned from a funeral for a young man only 21 years old. I’ll see him in heaven; I pray that you will be with us.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Young Christian Woman says:
Sorry about the italics–the sixth and seventh paragraphs are me.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Lucy says:
Mary Kay,
I didn’t ask you to state when life begins. I asked you to define what it is. What precisely was your point of moving that statement here. Wait…I don’t care. I could with ease go through and pull out the parts where you gave me definitions to words as though I didn’t know what they meant. I didn’t think anything of it at the time. I am actually for the idea of comparing understandings of information to be certain the participants are on the same page. You, however, have at every turn rejected the opportunity to present your actual thoughts and instead turned to this childish nonsense. It is now clear that the only reason you offered up definitions of these words was in an attempt to insinuate that I didn’t know what I was talking about. When you were A: proven wrong, and B: I wasn’t angered by your introduction of definitions I believed you introduced due to an attempt to display your perspective, you resulted to the tirade you have been on since. What is the point.
Moving the post over here…so that others can see it….is simply a perpetuation of your small minded, threatened nonsense. From what I can tell anyway. You have rejected my statements that if you would like to engage in civilized conversation that I would appreciate that with cutting and pasting things that you took some sort of offense from. I ask you a question and you dodge that, and attempt to distort the question.
If you have 5 children at least, one of them 20 years old, you are quite obviously a grown woman. Would you like to choose this moment to act the part or are you quite content. Frankly, I have encountered a few people on here and in other places who are capable of engaging in intelligent exchanges. When I say something, such as Thomas Jefferson doesn’t side with you, and they disagree, they offer up evidence to support their claim, and do not begin screaming about how I’ve belittled them. Obviously you cannot support your claims and so have resulted to nonsense. It’s sad really.
Frankly, I’m glad you are part of the anti abortion movement. You make my life easy. With you as representation they already have a lead weight attached to them. You are a fine addition to the enemy camp in my opinion. Please keep up the good work.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Lucy says:
Young Christian Woman,
Please forgive me, I’ll respond in a bit. Right now I am going to stop and breathe for a moment as I am still a bit upset by the behavior of another person on this blog. I do not believe that I have done anything to deserve her hateful behavior, yet I have a feeling it is simply a reflection of who she is and I am taking it to personally. Thank you for understanding.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 4:39 pm
Lucy says:
No, nevermind. Considering your obvious desire to take my words out of context I’ll continue now.
If grammatical errors are in issue…suck it up.
I stated the facts above. What I do not need is another kind Christian displaying their hateful nature to me. I made attempts to communicate with Mary Kay who decided to display that she was nothing more than a hateful individual incompetent of human interaction or answering simple questions.
I don’t care to exhaust myself by making the same mistake twice. I will place my question on every threat on here that I can find. My guess is that I will find that the pattern repeats itself. If you wish to make someone who defines themselves as ‘pro-life’ turn and flee ask them to define life.
Don’t pray for me. I wish to be with the Saints in hell.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Lucy says:
I am seeking for someone to define life. Not to explain when they believe life begins, but to define what they understand it to be. For people that define themselves as Pro-life this should be a simple task. After all, what are you Pro.
What is life.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Lucy says:
As long as we’re transferring things to be answered Mary Kay, why don’t you answer this as well.
Mary Kay,
I only meant that you took Thomas Jefferson out of context. Understanding what was behind the Declaration of Independence and what it is a Declaration of Independence of does make a difference. Most people know a catch phrase from it and do not know what it references. I have seen no evidence that you need be separated from most people. I apologize that I have actually studied the writings of Thomas Jefferson beyond the Declaration of Independence, therefore leaving me in a position to feel that I might have a little bit of an understanding of what he was referencing when he said what he said. No, I have not had a seance, I just read what he has to say, I feel that this is more productive than Seances. You are right, I should not ask you to not quote one of my personal heros simply because I find it offensive that you abuse his words in order to inflict the very things that he was determined to remove. You have a right to use him to serve your purposes, vile as I might find them.
I suppose now would be a bad time to tell you what hypocritical means.
I am trying to control a group of people by killing them? Well at least now I know where my to do list went, may I have that back please. ARE YOU KIDDING ME????????
I have the unalienable right to be alive? I think you might want to check that one. Or at least be more concise in your meaning, I think that you’ll find that if you examine it closely it doesn’t quite stand up to a whole lot of details that I must qualify as TOO EASY!
I think that you might want to examine what living means. Are we speaking of the maintanance of a pulse or would you like to expand your meaning to clarify what you speak of.
Of course we aren’t guarenteed happiness. We are guarenteed the pursuit of it. What would be your precise point? Oh, is your point that we don’t get to have sex or that abortions might make people happy. What is it you are getting at precisely? Having children makes people miserable but suck it up it comes with having sex and you just had to have that so now suffer the consequences? Please explain what your point was.
What are you defending exactly. Life? What is that in your opinion.
Does the woman have any rights? You are not taking my rights away? If the child that you are salvaging is female, and she suffers an abusive life where she is never allowed to make a decision for herself. What if she has a life where she is told on a daily basis that she is a horrible wretched invasion on the life of everyone in the world. What if her mothers only joy in life is beating her every hour on the hour. What if her mother tells her everyday how much she hates her, how much she has ruined her life. What if her mother makes her sit and listen she speaks to people on the phone about how horrible she is, what if the girl never knows who her mother spoke to and doesn’t know who does and does not think she is a monster? What if she spends her entire childhood horrified that someone will yell at her. Never knowing who, when or why someone will yell at her for anything. What if she never knows when she will be hit.
What if her father slams her into walls. Threatens to leave on a regular basis. Which she is told is her fault as well. What if she is told regularly that she doesn’t have it so bad and nobody else would take her. That noone else in the world would ever love her. What if she spent her entire youth terrified and alone. It didn’t matter where, home, school, Church, pick a place it doesn’t matter. What if she felt that she was alone and hated universally because of what they did to her. What if worse, she started to believe that maybe she was that horrible. That noone would ever love her.
What if then one day she meets someone who seems to defy everything that they have told her. What if initially she doesn’t even know what to do when someone touches her in a way that isn’t violent. What if all she knows is that maybe they were wrong that maybe someone does love her. What if that was all she wanted, and more than she thought could ever happen. What if she found out one day that she was pregnant, and that it might be true afterall, that noone would love her. What if she hadn’t known anything about birth control because she wasn’t allowed to learn. They taught it in school, but only with parental permission that she didn’t have. What if the only thing that made it so that she could function at all was that she happened to be at least sort of intelligent. Allowing her to be aware at very least that she had no way to take care of a child, that she couldn’t even take care of herself and that she had no one to turn to for help.
She had for all intensive purposes been deprived of anything that could be called life unless you are simply content to understand life as a pulse, which she wasn’t. Will you deprive her of life for the rest of her life. Will you then inflict this pain on a child that she doesn’t want, can’t take care of, and doesn’t know enough to even understand what happened to her. Never mind ensure that she won’t inflict the same kind of wounds on her child.
But you’re saving lives. So you probably think she should have just sucked it up. She had a pulse. She’s good to go. So what if she was abused, physically, emotionally, mentally, for her entire life. So what if she happily accepted the first offer of what seemed to be kindness and love that she had set in front of her. So what if that would be her entire life right. She doesn’t actually have the right to be okay. She’s pregnant now. She has responsibilites now. It’s over for her. She had the right to pursue happiness. She pursued it. She got it wrong.
I guess in your book she deserved all of the abuse. She asked to be born and she should just suck it up. Sometimes life just sucks right. I guess in your book she really was just that horrible. She really was just a monster. Afterall, what do you care. She doesn’t have any excuses. She had a pulse right. Who cares if she would have been in so much pain she would have more than likely raised her child with the only things that she had ever learned. Who cares that her child would have had the same problems right.
You afterall, know that all fetuses are just sitting inside the womb hoping to be born right.
Would it mean anything to you at all to know that upon learning that there was such a thing as abortion in the world she wondered why her mother hadn’t had one. That she wished and prayed to a God she now knows isn’t there that her mother wasn’t there.
It isn’t that there aren’t good parents who should have children in the world. I just think that half the battle is knowing whether or not you are one of those people. Of course you’ll probably tell me that that is a copout. You’ll tell me the girl I described doesn’t exist. You’ll tell me a lot of things that aren’t true.
Understanding Jefferson doesn’t have anything to do with being American. You’ll find that technically, Jefferson wasn’t American when he wrote it. You’ll also find that individuals such as Michaelangelo, Di Vinci and others of the sort weren’t Americans but thought in the same vein as Jefferson. Freedom, true freedom isn’t an American thing. The understanding of it, the hunger for it can’t be held by continental boundries.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 7:53 pm
Lucy says:
Or are finding that this one is also not in your manual?
I know, you’re ignoring me. That’s fine. I’ll take it as a lack of information to provide. You can attack children but you can’t give answers. I’m glad we have you to turn to for help in the world.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Lucy says:
That’s okay. I’ve come to the conclusion that nobody on here would like to give a definition for life. I’d like that to be at the forefront of each of your minds the next time you torment some poor women approaching the door of a clinic, making difficult decisions that you don’t have the courage to even respond to questions about in an honest manner. I would like you to ask her, kindly, remembering that you have confessed your ignorance on the topic, if she knows the answer.
Pro-what again. What were you promoting again?
Until you are promoting something more than a pulse please save your harrassment for something else.
I have just gone out to refresh my faith in humanity and remind myself that the people on this site are hardly represenatives of civilization. Off of this site I was pleasantly reintroduced to the fact that their are actual pleasant and reasonable people in the world.
I take comfort in the fact that in my state we have such wonderful people as Dick Durbin, who I believe should be granted a position as a Saint, I love that man, and the ever loved Barack Obama. Future President if ever there was, and when he is in office, as he will be, there will finally be someone who respects liberty within the office of President again, I can hardly wait. These fine men do a magnificant job in representing us and I am glad that I can send them a carefully crafted letter, ( carefully crafted being something I am glad to have not wasted my time with on here), that they are capable of responding reasonably, and consider things in the vein of upholding Liberty.
I am grateful due to the fact that it is a fine balance for sites such as this where people are not only cruel and hurtful, but are intentionally so. Where empty accusations are hurled in place of reasonable discussion by grown women who choose to behave like children. Where people cannot discern between a lack of choice and a less than preferable choice. Stating ones position is different than offering unprovoked attacks. Strongly worded statements are different from attacks. Disagreements are not attacks. Requests for respect for individuals who have contributed heavily to liberty is not an attack.
I really feel sorry for you people. You cannot offer a definition for the very thing you swear you are defending. As options you offer up the results of practices you condemn. When presented with evidence that contradicts your stance you flee or become hostile.
If there are other Pro-Choicers reading please, give it a shot. Ask for a definition. Ask them to define life. Not the start of life. But Life. What is life.
If you are given a response ask them what makes life worth living. If they can’t define life, they probably can’t define that either.
I have finally found the things that make my life worth living. I did not choose to be born. I did not choose the things that happened to me. I had no say, and had I been asked about any of these things, with knowledge of what they would do to me, I would have said no, absolutely NO. As a result of praying for death, and wishing my mother had visited an abortion clinic rather than having me, I have answers to what life is, because I have had to find them. I know what makes life worth living because I have had to find that as well. I didn’t ask for my life. It’s mine though. I fought for it against people who probably got pretty close to ending it. It’s my body and my mind. Nobody made me anything but me. I choose what I do with my body and my mind. I am a soveriegn individual. You have no authority over my mind and my body. I don’t know what in the world has possessed you to believe that you will take it, but you will not. Nothing will be in my body without my approval. You may kill me to change that, but you have nothing else that will sway my mind.
Mary Kay, you have not earned my respect and you will not recieve it without earning it. I don’t even care to guess who it is you think you are to dare demand people respect you without you earning their respect. That is the behavior of a bully. You are a grown woman attempting to intimidate people much younger than you. You are not attempting to carefully guide them in a better way, you are insulting and throwing tantrums. If todays youth follows your sad example tomorrow will be in a desparate condition. It is sad that your only efforts have been to attempt to do me harm. I admit, that I do feel pain when such behavior is directed towards me. I have no reason to believe that you would have hesitated to spit on me if we had been standing face to face. Your hollow accusations in an attempt to belittle and berate me are a reflection of your true character. While my response certainly could have stood without a few of the admitted jabs I inserted, it paled in comparison to your cruel expressions. It is my sincere hope that I am never granted the opportunity to actually meet you. I wish to know only good people, that respect life and liberty. You have shown yourself to be anything but.
I only wish there was a way that you could condemn yourself to what you wish without dragging the rest of us down.
Comment posted June 3rd, 2006 at 8:34 pm
Sunnyday says:
Life is not something to be taken lightly, to be manipulated simply to suit one’s whims or selfish interests.
It is a gift, no matter what the circumstances under which it was conceived or born into the world.
Life is meant to be a good because it comes from the Creator, but considering man’s wounded nature, life doesn’t always turn out fulfilling or even pleasant. Life throws challenges, big and small, our way and we can either turn our backs and choose the easy way out — trampling on the rights of others in the process — or face these challenges squarely and do the right thing.
Another thing is that if a human being is deemed useless or a burden to others, that diminishes in no way his dignity as a person and the value of his life. When a person can do very little, his life is precious just the same.
Life is lived to the full when it’s love that guides it — a love that’s based on the divine standard.
Those are bits and pieces of what I know to be life. It was nice to think about life, actually, as I wrote this. Makes me appreciate it more and appreciate my parents. =)
By the way, on a related note, you guys will find this news quite positive. A congressman in my country has filed a bill that protects physicians, nurses, midwives, medical students and others in the health profession from taking part in procedures or committing acts that go against their conscience. It’s House Bill 5028 or the Rights of Conscience Act of 2006 and it has been approved unanimously on first reading. More about it in these links:
http://www.alfi.org.ph/article/articleview/244/1/66
http://www.alfi.org.ph/article/articleview/246/1/34
http://www.congress.gov.ph/bis/qry_show.php#
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 4:41 am
mary kay says:
Pansy,
Lucy said:
“I do not believe that I have done anything to deserve her hateful behavior, yet I have a feeling it is simply a reflection of who she is aNo, nevermind. Considering your obvious desire to take my words out of context I’ll continue now.
If grammatical errors are in issue…suck it up.
I stated the facts above. What I do not need is another kind Christian displaying their hateful nature to me. I made attempts to communicate with Mary Kay who decided to display that she was nothing more than a hateful individual incompetent of human interaction or answering simple questions.
I don’t care to exhaust myself by making the same mistake twice. I will place my question on every threat on here that I can find. My guess is that I will find that the pattern repeats itself. If you wish to make someone who defines themselves as ‘pro-life’ turn and flee ask them to define life.
Don’t pray for me. I wish to be with the Saints in hell”
Well Pansy it seems as if you to have been proclaimed to be just like me; hateful…can’t think of any company I’d rather be in…
MK
funny, that freudian slip, no? I think she meant to say thread not threat…but one can never tell.
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 10:37 am
mary kay says:
Sorry Pansy,
That was meant for Young Christian Woman, although I suppose it is only a matter of time before you too are condemned…And I will enjoy being in your company as much as YCW’s….
MK
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 10:40 am
mary kay says:
Young Christian Woman,
Lucy said:
***“I do not believe that I have done anything to deserve her hateful behavior, yet I have a feeling it is simply a reflection of who she is aNo, nevermind. Considering your obvious desire to take my words out of context I’ll continue now.
If grammatical errors are in issue…suck it up.
I stated the facts above. What I do not need is another kind Christian displaying their hateful nature to me. I made attempts to communicate with Mary Kay who decided to display that she was nothing more than a hateful individual incompetent of human interaction or answering simple questions.
I don’t care to exhaust myself by making the same mistake twice. I will place my question on every threat on here that I can find. My guess is that I will find that the pattern repeats itself. If you wish to make someone who defines themselves as ‘pro-life’ turn and flee ask them to define life
Don’t pray for me. I wish to be with the Saints in hell”***
Well Young Christian Woman, it seems as if you to have been proclaimed to be just like me; hateful…can’t think of any company I’d rather be in…
MK
funny, that freudian slip, no? I think she meant to say thread not threat…but one can never tell.
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 10:42 am
mary kay says:
“The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the
clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity
of it’s benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to
liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind.” –Thomas
Jefferson to Moses Robinson, 1801. ME 10:237″A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a
document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of
the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me
infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they
draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its Author never said nor
saw.” –Thomas Jefferson to Charles Thompson, 1816. ME 14:385
While Mr. Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus he does seem to have believed in the principles that He stood for. I would imagaine that someone whose hero was Thomas Jefferson, would have more respect for people who are of a similar mind.
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 11:24 am
mary kay says:
D & X (Partial Birth) Abortions
A kind of late-term abortion, D&X (also know as partial birth abortion) has been in …
The reality is that less than 1% of abortions are D&E’s.
The abortion referred to is not a D&E but a D&X and 1% of 40 million is a lot of babies…of course I believe that just 1, not 1% is one too many.
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 11:30 am
Pansy Moss says:
of course I believe that just 1, not 1% is one too many.
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Pansy Moss says:
Oh, sorry, my comment didn’t come out correctly. I was saying I agree. It makes no difference if partial birth abortions are rare, they should not be legal period. They are a disgrace.
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
mary kay says:
Pansy,
I was just clarifying something Lucy said earlier…
Lucy Said:
“D&E’s. Dialation and Extraction. It’s a procedure that the anti abortion crowd has dubbed a partial birth abortion in effort to obtain an emotional reaction from the unimformed, as most shock value pursuits are it is overwhelmingly successful. People reel in horror, including Pro-Choicers, at the idea that such things are done. Of course ignorance is the key. The reality is that less than 1% of abortions are D&E’s. They are used only in extreme circumstances, the mothers life has to be endangered”
MK
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
Lauren says:
Lucy.. a breath of fresh air.. how are you doing?
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 7:26 pm
Lucy says:
Hi Lauren,
Nice to see you again. I don’t mind disagreement. Outright cruelty is different however. I simply don’t understand it. I hope you haven’t been the recipient of similar treatment.
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
Lucy says:
Well Pansy it seems as if you to have been proclaimed to be just like me; hateful…can’t think of any company I’d rather be in…
MK
funny, that freudian slip, no? I think she meant to say thread not threat…but one can never tell.
Out of curiosity Mary Kay, are you actually this evil or is it a show. If I insinuated that Pansy is just like you, to the best of my knowledge at that moment that would be a mistake. Pansy has as of yet demonstrated that she is a remarkably better person than you.
Am I not allowed to be angry. Is that reserved only for the loving Christians of the world. Is hate, anger, hostility, cruelty reserved only for you? Does this make you feel better? Obviously you do feel that because I was abused in the past it means that I am the perfect target for you. Obviously this is the type of predator you are. It’s funny, all of you Christians do the same trick. You are so much better than everyone else. As I said, my parents dragged me to church every Sunday. Apparently as long as they went to Church one day a week for an hour they could abuse me all they wished for the other 6 days and 23 hours. It comes as no surprise to me that you behave the way you do.
I would have put Pansy in terrible company, and perhaps in harms way. To Pansy I apologize. To you, the word was thread not threat. I don’t need to resort to violence. I am not clinging to faith to inform me that such behavior is wrong. I can figure it out for myself, reasonably, logically. I wouldn’t count on you for the same.
I’m sure that in your opinion you are being a kind and compassionate soul.
If you are to much of a coward to hold a civilized conversation with me than at least have the decency, talk about requesting a miracle, to leave me out of your conversations. I would like to communicate with Pansy, who is competent of civilized dialogue, for as long as she would like to speak to me. Even if you have succeeded in deterring her from wishing to speak to me, and that has come to an end now. Please do not mention my name again. Please understand that I am not speaking to you in anything that I post. Please do not post about me.
Jefferson was the leading advocate for separation of Church and State, he was capable of respecting the perspectives of others. He was also not channeling the devil however. One might question your condition.
I assume that it is your intention to make me cry. I would like to let you know so that you can know the sweet taste of victory that your hateful methods are successful. You have allowed me to relive parts of my past I did not wish to relive by your hateful tongue. Since it is obviously part of your nature to be nasty and hateful, this should brighten up your day to know that you hurt people. No, wait, you don’t care do you. Why should you. You’re so much better than the rest of us. You wish to save life.
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 9:41 pm
Lucy says:
You wish to save a pulse. Do you not recognize me. I was once a fetus in someones womb as well. I once had rights. I was born. Now I deserve to be treated like this. Now I deserve all of the anger and hate you can muster. It was never my decision to be concieved, born, beaten…
I come here by choice because I recognize life as more than just a pulse. I understand that I do indeed have a say in what happens in my life. I understand that if I have a child it is my responsibility and that I must be able to provide for the child and love the child. That for the rest of my life I must be able and willing to do these things. See, I know that not being able to do these things has damning and lasting effects. There is nothing that you can say to the individual who has to wonder why this happened to them, did they deserve it. I know what it is like to always wonder. I know what it is like to wish that your mother had had an abortion. I know what those things are like. I know that having children is not a punishment to be endured because mistakes were made, or protection failed. I know that I was not to be endured. I was supposed to be loved, and cared for, and protected. I know that you have made it clear that you feel that I deserved the abuse that I endured. You have made it abundantly clear that you feel I deserve more. I don’t hate myself enough anymore to wonder if you might be right. If you had found me a few years ago you might have made me wonder. I would have probably slit my wrists because of you, and swallowed a nice big bottle of Advil, to make the pain go away. I used to have one with me just in case. Because Advil works on all pain right. Shame right, You’ve made it clear that you would happily wish I still would. I’m sure your pal the Young Christian Woman is on your side on that one.
I understand that there is more at stake then the union of egg and sperm, creation of an embryo, and fetus, birth, and so forth. See, what you miss is that it is a potential human being. To whom love is as precious as air, and food is a neccessity. Within the body of a woman who was once part of the chain herself.
Your logic is fine if the being discussed is a cat or a dog or a fish, however, where people are concerned, I won’t hesitate to say that the results are different. Your logic is nonexistant when people are brought into the people.
Are you actually expecting that I should believe that you love an embryo?
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
mary kay says:
Lucy,
I don’t know how you have come to the conclusion that I hate you, because I don’t even know you. I have only tried to point out that sometimes the things that you say feel like they attack who I am and not what I am saying. You accuse me of the same, but when I ask you to show me how, you won’t do it. I can hardly change my behavior if I don’t know what I am doing wrong.
I realize that it is probably too late to make amends but I really do not hate you.
I spent the entire mass today asking Our Lord to show me what I could do differently to make things better between us. Then I spent an hour in the adoration chapel doing the same thing…I swear that this is true.
I feel terrible that we are at such odds with each other but am at a loss as to how to improve the situation.
I have not truly been angry (frustrated yes, but not angry) in all of our correspondence until I began reading about your childhood. The first time you spoke of it you spoke as if it was hypothetical and I wasn’t sure if you were talking about yourself or not. When I realized that you were indeed speaking of yourself I became furious. Not at you, but at your parents. At mass today I kept getting this image of a little girl with big, soulful brown eyes staring up st the people in her life that she trusted with all her heart and soul and having her innocence stolen by the very people who should have cherished her (you).
I promise you with all my heart and soul that if I could turn back time, I would take you in my arms and rock you while we both cried until you could feel safe, and loved again.
You should have been growing up loving the smell of a new box of crayons, getting shiny new shoes and chocolate bunnies at Easter, being read “Where the Wild Things Are” and being cherished for the beautiful child that I am sure you were. Unfortunately, things have gotten so out of hand that I cannot offer you anything at this point that would not be considered hypocrisy. It isn’t, but I worry that you will take it that way.
Truly, if I have in anyway reminded you of the people in your life who have hurt you, I am SOOOOOO sorry. I’m crying even as I write this. No child, NONE, should ever have to worry about being hurt or ridiculed or made to question their self worth…I’m sorry. I’m sorry because I didn’t hear that little girl that is Lucy. Instead of hearing her all I could hear was the anger. I mistook that for nastiness and did not realize that it was pain.
I won’t write again to you unless you want…and I can’t imagine why you would. But know that I will continue to pray for you, and that you are in my heart…again, I am so sorry.
MK
PS I do not pity you. That would be insulting. But I did feel your pain coming through, and it shook me to my core. So when I say I am sorry, it is not in a condescending way, but in a show of empathy…
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
mary kay says:
Lucy,
I just wanted to add, that I was sleeping soundly, when I woke up just now and couldn’t go back to sleep. I kept having conversations in my head with you and was tossin’ and turnin’ when it occured to me that you might be online now. I got out of bed and logged on and here you were…don’t know what it means but it was wierd! I guess you must be on mind…
MK
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 10:10 pm
Pansy Moss says:
I know that having children is not a punishment to be endured because mistakes were made, or protection failed. I know that I was not to be endured.
Oh No! This is wrong. I am sorry if you felt this way and this has happened to you. It is despicable to make anyone feel as such.
There is an argument for birth control that people say-that it is irresponsible for people to have children when they are not ready. I don’t believe that (although I think people should take responsibility as to what situation they are in before they engage in sex). I believe that the irresponsibility is simply not taking care of your child. I am of course oversimplyfing another discussion, but I am using it to make a point: If you have a child, take care of that child and love it. Even if you made the “wrong choice” by keeping it, get over it and walk forward not back.
My husband’s parents tell him often that his father wanted to abort him, and for some reason my MIL thinks this shows what a wonderful mother she is. My inlaws are divorced and have one adult child between them, and besides being dead beat parents while my husband was growing up, they are extreme dead beats now, which is weird because when your child is an adult, the only efforts you have to make is showing up to a baptism or First Holy Communion, or call on a birthday. Nada. But they double the efforts for their current paramour’s children. Nothing I do for my husband can make that better for him.
I hate to say I have no respect for someone just because of differing values, I try to respect the people, but hate the values, but I have no respect for my inlaws.
My daughter’s godmother was also told the same words of love “I almost aborted you…”
I will not lie, motherhood is bloody hard. It is boring, monotonous, physically tiring, and our society treats women once they become mothers like neutered women. But it can be like this in the best of scenarios with a million dollar house and a perfectly planned pregnancy. And you can have a baby under the worst of circumstances and count your blessings.
My personal opinion is that abortion has given people the option to feel like, well they had Door 1 or Door 2-to abort or keep the baby, and it leaves women who decide not to abort (who feel that is an option) thinking they made the wrong choice when the going gets tough.
Then of course there is the faith angle, and perhaps that makes a difference in perspective. My faith tells me God doesn’t mistake who He decides to create. If He doesn’t want someone to be there, that child ain’t coming. But when He does send a child, it is a gift. Again, I understand that I can’t expect everyone or anyone to think that way, but I think that is a difference between “ugh, I had this baby, what am I doing? I’ll just get through it for the next 18 years” and “I didn’t want a child, but I didn’t know what I was missing”
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
mary kay says:
You know Lucy, since you posed the question 2 days ago, I have been trying to come up with a definitive answer…but quite honestly, I’m stumped!
What is life? That’s kind of like asking what is beauty. Or Love. Or hope. You’re right that is is easier to define when you believe that life begins. But what is it exactly? Hmmmm…
Since there is no scientific answer, I guess I would have to give a faith based one.
I believe that Life is a gift from God. I believe that we are created in His image, and are expected to discover and follow the plan that He had in mind when He created us. I also believe that while it is a gift it is also a responsibility. A responsiblity to live up to our potential and if we are created in His image then to try to reflect Him to everyone who sees us. When you look at me you should see God looking backing…through my actions, words, dress, etc. Of course I often fail miserably at this, but no one would be my friend if I was perfect. (LOL)
It is a state of being and becoming and I believe it is a stopover on the way to somewhere else, somewhere better.
I believe that it is an opportunity, through trial and error, to make a choice, as to where you want to spend eternity. I believe it is an opportunity to make a choice to spend eternity with Him.
I believe that it is a chance for our souls to face challenges, bear sorrows, experience joy, love, laugh, climb, endure pain all the while trusting in Him, and knowing that if we just keep trusting Him, we will be rewarded. By being with Him.
I believe that we are an expression of God’s love.
Is that what you meant?
MK
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 10:45 pm
Young Christian Woman says:
Lucy,
I am so sorry that the story you posted is your own; I did not know that in my response to it. I hope you will forgive me if I was insensitive due to this.
I am very sorry that you felt abortion was your best, or only, choice. What could have changed your mind? Is there anything that would have convinced you that adoption would have been acceptable, or that you could get resources and training that could have helped you parent your son or daughter? I am horrified that people who represented themselves as Christians (though I doubt that they were) would treat you in such a way. I will try to avoid making arguments from religion, if you like. However, my belief is that religion is not a one-hour-a-week thing. For me, Christianity is not just “religion”; it is the way I live my life (or at least try to; I’m not perfect). Christianity is about trying to live as Jesus lived and do what Jesus would do.
I do not know why you think that I hate you because I criticized your grammar. Criticizing grammar used to be my job, and I try to avoid criticizing people’s grammar online (yours, Mary Kay’s, whosever’s) because it would take up all my time and accomplish nothing. I tried to explain why I found your grammar confusing and how it impeded my understanding of your sentence. Again, helping people with this was my job at one point, and I don’t do it to make you feel inferior. You admit yourself that these posts are not carefully crafted, so why are you offended that I did not understand for sure what you were saying. I will try to refrain from this in the future, if you wish. To me, though, it seems as if you are looking for unkindness when you consider that hatred. I will try to be gentler if I do not understand things in the future.
I will try and speak to some of your concerns on this thread.
You said:
I think that you might want to examine what living means. Are we speaking of the maintanance of a pulse or would you like to expand your meaning to clarify what you speak of.
Actually, this is something I have been struggling with myself. I have found myself somewhat lost as to what to do next. I feel a pull towards the anti-abortion movement in my life due to a few things in my life. The first thing was the premature birth of my baby nephew in late November. He was born tinier than most—just under five pounds—but he is certainly alive and human, loved by his parents, grandparents, aunts, and uncles. When my nephew was conceived, his parents were not yet married and still in college. I am sure that many would not have brought a child into such circumstances, even if they had conceived him, but my sister-in-law chose to quit school and marry her boyfriend, my husband’s brother. She still has a life outside her home and many friends.
The next thing that happened was, I think, in January. I have wanted a baby since I got married—or maybe forever—and now that we finally had a house, my husband was more enthusiastic about the idea. But just before I started a new job as an elementary school substitute teacher, I had an unusually heavy period. There was much more blood than ever before, and I had some of the worst cramps I have ever had. Usually I do not cramp at all. I am very irregular, and it would make some sense if this had been a late period; it is not uncommon for me for two months to elapse. However, this was an early period. I believe that on that day I lost my firstborn son or daughter, whom I have named Joseph or Anna. I realized, in retrospect, that I had shown a few other signs of pregnancy over the past weeks. I never saw my baby, and probably would not have recognized him or her as a baby if I did. I still know what I experienced, though I knew from research on the internet that there was nothing any doctor could have done.
I did not tell anyone about my baby except my husband. I could hear what people might say: “At least you didn’t know you were pregnant.” “It’s not like you got attached.” “At least it wasn’t a baby yet.” Stuff like that. I knew I couldn’t handle hearing that. I felt so isolated from other people. I felt—still feel, sometimes—like I have no friends. Who could I tell? How would I know what they believed or what they would say? Certainly not my family, who did not share many of my convictions. There was no one to whom I felt close enough to tell, so I kept that grief inside me. I wept with my husband. I still cry sometimes. This is part of where the poor counsel I had heard before hurt me—if those I had trusted before did not have the same convictions as me then, would they now?
I was led to research abortion extensively by these events. This also led me to research birth control, and I repented that I used it, although I have no reason to believe it killed any children. One day I asked for a sign—what was I supposed to do? I went walking near my house. Within yards, I came across a dumping site. A new load of trash had been dumped just before the last snowfall. Included in the trash were a baby sit ‘n’ play and three baby baths. These items I took home. There were also quite a few other baby items which were not salvageable. I do not know where these came from. I do not know what the sign meant. But it’s hard (for me at least) to deny that it was a sign.
Very recently, my enemy depression has come back with a vengeance. Though taking care of my house well for the first time had staved it off a bit, and some of my recent spiritual experiences had been uplifting, my irrational beliefs that I was ugly, unworthy of love, stupid, fat, lazy, disorganized, useless because I have no driver’s license, et cetera came to the forefront in my life again. I keep thinking ahead to the prospect that I may never have children and may live forty or sixty more years. It’s terrifying to me. I don’t want to spend my life being an educator and raising other people’s kids. I’ve quit the post-baccalaureate classes I was taking towards being a teacher of high school English. I have wondered what there is to look forward to between now and the end of my life. I could not come up with what there might be unless I have children.
I do not know where my depression comes from. My parents were good parents, so if anything I blame it on school peers in my elementary years or my younger sister.
I still do not know what I should be doing. I wish that I was five and a half months pregnant, but I cannot change that. I’ve been in contact with a woman about my age whose mother works at a crisis pregnancy center. I have discussed my convictions with my pastor, though he did not agree with them. I even talked about my feelings about birth control with another friend, who expressed agreement. It was so freeing to think that I was not alone in that. My husband and I have decided to begin looking into adoption. And here I am now.
A part of me knows that if the powers of darkness are trying so hard to stop me, something worthwhile must be in store for me. A part of me knows that there is some reason I have such a deep love for children of all ages. A part of me knows that the life I have in store for me will prosper me and not harm me, and that I have a hope and a future. A part of me is starting to believe when my husband tells me I am beautiful, loving, and loved.
Say of me what you will, but know that I am sincere in my beliefs.
And now I will go outside in the dark and sing praises to the Lord who just delivered me from my depression. Thank you, Lucy. Thank you very much.
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 1:29 am
Young Christian Woman says:
Lucy told us:
As a result of praying for death, and wishing my mother had visited an abortion clinic rather than having me, I have answers to what life is, because I have had to find them.
What are your answers? I would be very interested in hearing them.
Lucy, none of us want any rights to your body. Please believe that. Certainly we know we have no right to control your mind, and I hope that none of us are arrogant enough to think that. I really hope that you don’t think we want to kill you. I sympathize with you deeply. I hope that you don’t have to go through anything you went through again. I hope that you are successful in controlling your body. And I hope that in doing so you do not inadvertently hurt anyone else.
You are allowed to be angry. But I hope you feel peace. You are allowed to hate. Please, hate me if it will help you. But I hope you will come to know love. You have every right to be hostile. I can’t blame you. Go ahead and be cruel. I’m not easy to hurt. I hope that helps you. Get out what you need to get out. I hope you gain release through that.
I’m not better than anyone else. I’m no better than you. I’m probably worse. I have no right to judge you. You’re right.
Lucy, you do not deserve to be treated with hostility or disrespect. You do not deserve hatred or anger. You do not deserve to be beaten. You deserve a say in your life. You deserve love and nothing more. I hope you get that.
You did not deserve what happened to you. No one can deserve that. I cannot truly imagine what you have been through. But I know that you did not deserve it. You are a good person. You deserve to be loved. You deserve to be accepted as who you are, no strings attached. You deserve better than any brainwashing and manipulation and abuse. You don’t deserve to wish that you never existed. I hope that, if you still wish that, there will come a time when you do not. You are not a mistake. You are a human being. You deserve to be loved. You are loved. I do not presume to say by me. You would not believe me if I did. But know that you are loved. You deserve to be loved. You deserve to be cared for and protected. I hope that one day you find someone who will do those things for you. You do not deserve what you went through. You do not. You deserve love. You are worthy of love. You are beautiful. You do not deserve death. You do not deserve pain. You deserve to be loved. You have always deserved to be loved. I do not think you deserve to die or be hated or be abused. You deserve love.
You did not deserve to be endured. You do not. You deserve to be loved.
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 2:25 am
mary kay says:
Young Christian Woman,
It’s like I always tell my children…”Give people a break, because everyone one of us has a story…”
I hope Lucy will forgive me too. You’re right, she does deserve love. I never stopped to read between the lines and see pain instead of anger. I NEVER intended to be mean or to hurt her, but the road to hell and all that…! When I ask her to show me where I have been mean, I am sincere because I hate the thought that I caused someone pain. Sometimes it’s hard to remember that these are not just pages of words, but that real living breathing human beings are behind them. Bad me.
I have a friend who is about to adopt her 6th and 7th child. She now has 3 children from Viet Nam and 2 from China. Except for the fact that they obviously look different, no one in this parish thinks of them as anybody elses. They are all Cathy and Jims.
They are now going to adopt twin boys. Just thought I’d let you know that it takes less time than trying to adopt an American baby, although the cost can be steep. There are Czech babies and Russian babies (although most of them are over the age of two). My mother used to take a baby doll to bed with her every night praying that when she woke up she would get a phone call telling her that Catholic Charities had a real baby for her. She waited 6 years for my brother, 5 years each for my sister and me.
I already have you on my prayer list for the Adoration Chapel, now I will be more specific.
I have a girlfriend who couldn’t get pregnant. I told her to sprinkle Holy Water on the bed, pray together before she and her husband made love, to wear a Miraculous Medal and put the whole thing in Our Lady’s hands. Parker is 9 years old now. She was pregnant within a month. Obviously you can’t do this like a superstitious ritual. The idea was that they had blessed the marriage bed and given a sign of faith to God that they trusted Him and were open to having children. She wasn’t Catholic at the time, but soon after went through the RCIA program and Parker and my friend were baptized.
Next, my son suffers from Bi-polar. Your depression could actually be medical and not emotional. If you brain isn’t triggering the chemicals that offset depression, you might need something to stimulate it. There is no shame in taking something to keep you from feeling miserable. Diabetics do it, heart patients, even getting a headache requires help…I can tell you that my son tried to kill himself three times before they diagnosed him, but he is now an absolutely different person. He will always have to fight the bi-polar, always have ups and downs, but it won’t be as critical and he can live a normal life now.
Anyway, God bless you, I’m going right now to ask God if you couldn’t maybe have a baby. I can’t think of anyone who would make a better mother.
Love,
MK
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 6:27 am
rosie says:
Young Christian Woman,
Boy can I relate! I lost my daughter when I was 23 weeks along to something called hydrops. Everything you described feeling is totally normal. I also remember the feeling of having to save face and was constantly on guard against anything anyone might say. I also asked for a sign from God and realized I was getting some before it happened. One night my husband and I both got one. I never have nightmares but that night I kept having this dream that I was holding my baby and then she was gone and all the time this woman kept saying ” you won’t understand, this one is special.” Anyway, my husband told me he kept getting the question “are you willing to deal with what I do?” He told me he got up in the middle of the night to pray for strength as if he knew something big was going to happen.
When we didn’t hear her heartbeat we knew. Here’s the hardest part, I was pregnant with 3 of my sister in-laws and we were due within weeks of each other. There would have been 2 boys and 2 girls. We went to the hospital and I was induced because we didn’t know how long she had been gone, however we got to hold her and say good bye. We named her Natalie Rose.
Don’t give up hope that you can have children, you were pregnant which means there is nothing wrong with you. After my sister in-law had her first baby she miscarried twice and she has six kids now. My periods are irregular and i’ve been taking chaste tree berry extract and it’s made them a little more regular. Prayer also helps, I also share the feeling that I don’t know what i’m supposed to do if I can’t have kids, but I really try hard not to think that way(easier said than done I know) I get very frustrated sometimes but then I think “well it’s only been 6 months, maybe God is giving me more time to heal, at least I know I can get pregnant” Did you know that a third of women lose a baby? I found it interesting because A third of the angels fell. Hope, don’t stop.
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 10:13 am
mary kay says:
Rosie and Young Christian Woman,
You know the names you guys picked for your babies are beautiful. (PLEASE don’t take this wrong…) I have five sons and one daughter. I have also always had female pets (collies, mostly). And because I had favorite girls names but no girls, I gave my favorite names to my pets. I have had an Annie, a Rosie, a Gracie and yes, even our sweet little bunny, Lucy. I am certainly NOT comparing your precious children to my animals…just saying that I LOVE those names. Of course when I finally got a little girl, I named her after our Lady and my mother because everyone gave me so much grief for naming her after a dog…ahhhh, God and his sense of humor.
Anyway,
sometimes I picture little souls up in heaven waiting to be born, and I see Jesus walk into the room and say “I’m looking for a volunteer. Someone to help carry my cross, because the evil in the world is getting too great and I need help to offset it…it won’t be easy. Some of you will come back to Me before you even see your mothers face. Some of you will live, but have very difficult trials to undergo…abuse, handicaps, ridicule…Now, do I have any takers?”
And I see these precious, unborn, innocent souls raise their hands and volunteer to undergo terrible hardships all for the love of Jesus and their brothers and sisters. I don’t know if that helps or hurts…It’s hard to know what to say. but I really believe that your children served a great purpose, and that while we don’t know what that purpose is now, one day you will meet them in heaven and understand why they wear the very special crown of martyrdom…
You”re right to say keep hoping…I don’t know how old you guys are, but I do know that somewhere there is a child who has asked to have you as their parents…
God Bless both of you,
MK
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 10:26 am
rosie says:
Mary Kay,
Thanks! It does help, I believe the same. I believe she served her purpose here and that now her job is being done in heaven, I do believe she (her soul) had some sort of a dialogue with God and agreed to go. You know, after we lost her I asked God to give me a sign that she was with Him and she was OK and our fire alarm went off, we had just changeed the batteries. I guess I wasn’t too convinced so I asked again and the same thing happened except it wouldn’t stop, so I decided I probably shouldn’t push my luck and took it as the sign I asked for, yes that sense of humor is great! I’m 30 so you can imagine how that clock is ticking, I know I don’t have the right to be a mother but i’ll take the chance if it’s given.
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
mary kay says:
Rosie,
30? you’re just a baby! I had my last one at 42! You know natural family planning works just as well for people trying to have a baby as though postponing it. Maybe you could look into it from that end (if you haven’t already)…
Either way, 30 truly is still young. You’re ove the hardest part…finding a husband…
How long have you been married, if I’m not being rude?
MK
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
rosie says:
Mary Kay,
Oh we use NFP! I’ve been married for 15 months and we got pregnant the first time in 2 months!Yikes! I knew him for 10 years before we got married though. Having irregular periods has been a slight problem so it makes predicting ovulation a bit hard so I just narrow it down to the week!(lol) I know i’m still young but I was really hoping for 10 kids but what can you do.
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
John says:
Lucy said: “I am seeking for someone to define life. Not to explain when they believe life begins, but to define what they understand it to be. For people that define themselves as Pro-life this should be a simple task. After all, what are you Pro.
What is life.”
Lucy,
I see that you have posed this question in the comments section on multiple posts.
I’ll include the following here, since this is currently the most recent post on the blog.
From dictionary.com:
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
Michael says:
I don’t think Lucy was baiting us for a dictionary definition of life. However, I will still adapt one of the definitions from John’s entry to provide a short definition of “life” as I define “pro-life.”
Life: “The interval of time between natural conception and natural death.”
This interval of time, during which we as humans are created by God and our parents as individuals who are different from any person who has ever lived before us or who will live in the future, and are from conception imbued with an eternal soul that enables us to discern right from wrong and good from evil; this is what I defend when I declare myself to be pro-life.
Yes, I care deeply about abortion, the destruction of innocent life. I also care about euthanasia, and the dismissal in modern society of any life that does not conform to modern ideas of “productivity” and “usefulness.” The death penalty, as it exists in the United States, is also a violation of the respect that “life” deserves. For that matter, Supermax prisons are very problematic, for they also deny the humanity of the souls that live inside their walls. (As a side discussion, I’ve often wondered what is less respectful of life, the death penalty or Supermax prisons- any volunteers?)
You see, if somebody is truly pro-life, abortion should be the preeminent, but not only, offense against human life that he or she should protest against. I oppose the phrase “anti-abortion” because that is a gross understatement of what is important.
Lucy, how did I do? I know we may disagree on many of the things I just said, but does this help you understand what at least some of us mean by “life?”
Everyone else, is there a main point I forgot?
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 3:05 pm
Michael says:
Please forgive me, I’m still feeling the effects of the nice knock on the head I suffered earlier today. From my previous post, when I say…”I oppose the phrase “anti-abortion” because that is a gross understatement of what is important…”, I mean…
“I oppose the phrase ‘anti-abortion’ because that is a gross understatement of the breadth of what is important.”
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
mary kay says:
Rosie,
Have you ever read a book called “The Family Nobody Wanted”?
I don’t even know if it’s still in print, but it is the story of a couple who also wanted 12 kids but found they couldn’t conceive…Through a complicated set of circumstances they end up adopting 12 kids of 12 different ages and nationalities…
I’m not saying that’s what you should do. It was just a great, heart warming book and I thought you might like to read it. When you mentioned wanting 10 kids it reminded me of it.
When my sister got married (she married a man from Ireland) they had the wedding here in Chicago. Everyone stayed at various relatives homes. The cousin of my sisters husband stayed at our house.
We had just had our sixth child and Trish and her husband John had been trying for years to get pregnant. We sat up one night until 2 in the morning talking about our faith and what it means to be a Catholic. I told her that if she would faithfully say a rosary with me and go back to church Mary might intercede and help get her a baby. Well, we said that rosary, and Trish went back to church. A month after she got back to Ireland she called to tell me that she had gotten pregnant at my house that night. That was six years ago. She just had her fourth child. I keep kidding her about being careful what you ask for in prayer, because you just might get it. Another cousin of mine adopted a child when she couldn’t get pregnant after 6 years and then proceeded to have 3 more of her own…So there is always, always, always hope!
You are in my Adoration Chapel book and I will be asking for this blessing for you and Young Christian Woman…Expect a miracle!
MK
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
mary kay says:
Also Rosie,
Make sure you ask Natalie Rose to plead your case for a brother or sister for her. She has direct access to the Man Himself now…
MK
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 4:26 pm
rosie says:
Mary Kay,
I have not read that book, i’m still trying to work up the courage to read “Letters to Gabriel” that someone gave me. I keep hearing stories about couples who adopt and then get pregnant right after so my sister in-laws always have me smell their babies when we get together. I have talked to my husband about foster parenting but he does not want to have to deal with government or state programs, which I can understand. I talk to Natalie Rose all the time. Thanks for the prayers, i’ll be looking for that miracle:)
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
Sunnyday says:
Rosie,
Hi! I skimmed some of your comments as well as those of everyone else. But I’m in the office and don’t have much time to have all your words sink in. However, I would like to point out that at 30, you can have the 10 children you’d like to have (or a bit less) because who knows if God plans for you and your husband to be parents to twins and triplets? =)
I will be including you in our daily 3:00 prayer here at the office. Take care.
Sunny
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 8:07 pm
mary kay says:
Sunnyday,
Don’t forget Young Christian Woman and Lucy in that three O’clock prayer.
Did I read right? Are you actually corresponding from the Philippines? That is amazing!
My father’s caretaker is from there. He and his wife are here in Chicago but their two little girls are still in the Philippines. The whole immigration thing is so hard. On one hand if it wasn’t for Ruel I don’t know what we would do about my father, and if anyone deserves to be a citizen, he does. On the other hand, is it fair to all the people who have taken the “legal” route and are waiting and waiting…either way, my heart breaks for Ruel and his wife. Where in the Philippines are you?
MK
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 8:22 pm
Lauren says:
Hey Lucy…
I dont feel like really responding to any of this on here, because it stresses me out too much… I’ve decided to take a break from it until I’m ready to put myself through that again.. Yes there is a great deal of cruelty on this board. It’s usually disguised as deeply held religious beliefs and is used as a way to marginalize and condescend. They think you’re stupid or unenlightened and it’s the kind of right-wing Christian elitism I’ve come to loathe. I’ve been treated like a child on this site.. It doesnt’ seem to matter what you’ve been through or what educational background you’re from, you are always going to be wrong, not even a person with just a different opinion. Get used to it on here. It has become particularly venomous. If you say a ton of grea tthings, they will find one sentence that offends them and doesnt have to do with the core of what you’re saying and will accuse you of being mean.. It’s not worth the energy I’m beginning to realize. They hate us, although they will say they love us. If they loved us they wouldn’t condescend as much as they do.
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 9:59 pm
Aine says:
My momma always said, “Life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you’re gonna get.” A
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 10:21 pm
Sunnyday says:
Mary Kay,
I’m in the capital, Manila! Great to hear that a person you depend a great deal on happens to be a countryman of mine. You’re right — the immigration process is quite tedious but I hope Ruel and his whole family are together again very soon!
Btw, I’ve heard several times of Chicago being referred to as “little Manila” because there are so many Filipinos there. I know that many Filipino doctors (and nurses, I think) work in hospitals in the Chicago area…
Lucy and Young Christian Woman will also be included in our prayer intentions every 3:00. =) And I pray everyday for the unity of everyone in the pro-life movement.
Sunny
P.S. I expect to wait several hours yet for anyone to reply as I believe it’s around 5 a.m. there (it’s a little past 5 p.m. here). Btw, do you know that as you guys over there are starting to experience summer, we over here are at its tailend and are experiencing the beginnings of the wet season? Meaning, typhoons until around October once again!
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 4:04 am
Mary Kay says:
Sunnyday,
Yes I know. My sister lives in Australia. I go to bed, she gets up.
I put on suntan oil she puts on a sweater…
When we send Christmas presents to Ruels girls, they usually recieve them by Easter…
I can tell you that here in Chicago we know that if you get a Filipino priest you are getting the best and the Catholic Filipino community is strong and devout. I love your people. Always kind and courteous in a quiet humble fashion…Americans could take a lesson.
How did you stumble on this site? Have you been to Chicago? Do you know Joe, Anne, or Eric Schiedler?
MK
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 5:01 am
Mary Kay says:
Lauren,
I am sorry you feel that everyone on this site is mean. I wish you could show me an example of how I have been cruel. Lucy claims that I am mean too. I can’t believe that you honestly think we are all evil and work morning noon and night to fool everyone. We are passionate, yes, just like you. You claimed to want to learn more about the church. You asked questions, I answered. I thought you were sincere, and actually said so when other people claimed you were faking it. I can’t believe I was duped like that. It doesn’t matter. I’ll continue to pray for you, and hope that your journey takes you only to higher and better places. Are you sure that the real reason you’re having a hard time coming back to this site isn’t because you were getting too close to the truth and having to rethink your beliefs? That can be painful, especially if you yourself have had an abortion. But always remember that while the church makes mistakes, the one thing it gets right is that there is always a road back.
Take care,
MK
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 5:06 am
Mary Kay says:
Lucy,
***”I understand that there is more at stake then the union of egg and sperm, creation of an embryo, and fetus, birth, and so forth. See, what you miss is that it is a potential human being. To whom love is as precious as air, and food is a neccessity. Within the body of a woman who was once part of the chain herself. ”
But Lucy, we DO understand. That’s why we fight so hard for the right of those human beings to live. But we don’t look at it as a potential human being. Rather, we see them as human beings with potential! And you are absolutely right! Love is as precious as air. And that is why we want to protect that child. To ensure it’s right to live, be loved…
I hate what those people have done to you. Not just your parents either. But every adult who came across your path and turned a blind eye. Every social worker who has sent a child in your posistion back into the insanity. I have tried to have a number of children removed from their homes. In one the mother was an alcoholic that abused her little girl horribly. But each and every time, they sent her back. Another was a family of nine and the mother was a coke addict. I took one of her children for a year, but he was like a fish out of water, and chose to go back to the life he had come from. He was thirteen at the time, and black, and I think everything here was just too foriegn to him. He had a curfew for the first time in his life. School was harder. I cried so hard the day he left. I heard he was in jail. DCFS just kept giving the rest of the kids back to their mother. I remember one time a little one picked a hotdog up off the floor.( I don’t want to tell you the color of that hotdog) and proceeded to eat it. That was probably the only food he had to eat that day.
We took them all to the beach one day, and the mother said it was the first time she had ever “seen” a sunset.
The world is a hard and cruel place. I wish I could take every single child in the world that isn’t loved properly. But alas, the law doesn’t work that way.
But we must keep fighting to change the laws that allow the “Lucies”, and Cedrics and Julias of the world to fall through the cracks.
We must also protect the most vulnerable of all children, the Unborn, because if we can’t protect them from their own parents, how can we protect the five year olds? It’s really all madness.
And so all of us, You, Me and anyone else who cares about the innocent, must keep fighting on the behalf of the children. In your own way, you too are fighting for the innocent. We just consider the unborn part of that group. But we are both hoping to change the way the world sometimes treats those who are unable to defend themselves…whether they are 8 weeks in the womb, 5 years old or 90 years old.
Actually, we are on the same side. The side of a better world.
God Bless,
MK
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 5:29 am
Sunnyday says:
Now that you ask me, I can’t remember how I came to know about Generations for Life. Probably via LifeSite or ProLifeBlogs, but I know it was a news item or blog entry about this site being new. So I checked it out — and good thing I did too!
That’s funny about your Christmas presents for the girls being received by them in time for Easter…
I know what you are referring to when you say about Filipinos’ being “kind and courteous in a quiet humble fashion”; I can see the difference between our ways and most Americans (and Europeans). What I appreciate about your people is your assertiveness, especially when there is a real need to speak up. Only now are more Filipinos speaking up about what’s happening in the media, in legislation. I think it used to be only the left-leaning people who spoke up about what they thought was right and not right, why they thought that, and what ought to be done.
Oh, I must tell you: I owe a lot to the people in the Yahoo Catholic Chatrooms that I frequented in 2002 for close to 2 years. About 90% of the chatters there were Americans and though you always get your share of “psychopathic” fellas there, overall it was a very very enriching experience. Christians in your country know their faith AND know how to explain articles of faith to others. The Catholics I got to know there were pretty cool, and not at all subscribers to the “Catholic-lite” brand of belief and application, if you know what I mean. Being there enriched and deepened my faith, that I can say.
The past couple of days I haven’t been reading everything in the comments here, basically because there are so many and they have been quite long and emotional. But I do pray that God’s love continues to prevail over each person who is involved in the discussions.
Sunnyday
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 7:20 am
Mary Kay says:
Lucy,
If you come back, you’re last post was #28…a lot has been added since then. Just wanted to let you know.
MK
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 10:13 am
rosie says:
Mary Kay and Sunnyday,
Thanks for the prayers, i’ll do the same for you. I didn’t mean to bring anyone down, I was just trying to let YCW know she wasn’t alone in what she was feeling, hope I didn’t make it worse.
Mary Kay,
I don’t think you’ve been mean. I think the fact that people are against abortion and argue against it makes them mean in some eyes. For some all you would have to say is “I think it’s wrong” and they would think you were attacking them personally. It’s basically a one way road. Oh well.
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 10:53 am
Mary Kay says:
Rosie,
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate that…I was starting to think that I was nuts. I have gone over and over my posts and except for the one where I went off on the “I Want” tirade I can’t figure out what I have done that could be considered mean. Forceful, yes. But not mean. Even the “I want” tirade was really just a way of pointing out that when everything you do is about what you want, you tend to lose sight of the fact that other people can be affected by your desires. I never meant to hurt Lucy, but if I did I am sincerely sorry for it. But even when I apologized I got yelled at. And when nobody else said anything, I started to think that maybe Lucy was right. But I just can’t see it.
It’s funny too, cuz at the clinic, I always try to stay late and catch the women coming out so I can assure them that what they did, while awful, is not a final daming of their soul…There is always a way back. I tell them that I am NOT judging them and that I know they are in a lot of pain. Then I give them the “Project Rachel” brochure. I don’t hate women who are pro-choice, I just hate abortion. I hate how it harms women and makes them angry, and hard. I hate how it makes money off of womens pain. I hate how it changes them, sometimes forever. and I hate that it takes the lives of our children. Although I actually think sometimes that the babies have it easier than the mothers because the babies go straight into the arms of Jesus and Mary while the mothers are left having to spend the rest of their lives trying to defend and justify what they have done.
I pray for Lucy, and Lauren and all the women and men who have been touched by abortion. Because that touch can mean death to their souls. And that death is much worse than physical death. If only they could see that it doesn’t have to be that way. There is a way home…
MK
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
Pansy Moss says:
Now that you ask me, I can’t remember how I came to know about Generations for Life. Probably via LifeSite or ProLifeBlogs, but I know it was a news item or blog entry about this site being new.
Generations for Life has been linked a number of times and blugged by various blogs since it started. I think the first I came here was through the The Angry Twins I think…Anyway, I htink I made it a daily read after you guys blew the cover on that CPC urban legend thing. That was so good.
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 1:40 pm
John says:
Pansy said: “Generations for Life has been linked a number of times and blugged by various blogs since it started. I think the first I came here was through the The Angry Twins I think…Anyway, I htink I made it a daily read after you guys blew the cover on that CPC urban legend thing. That was so good.”
Pansy,
Thanks!
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
rosie says:
MaryKay,
No you’re not nuts. Theres nothing wrong about being pasionate about something, actually I think it’s a good sign when people react, it means you’re getting your message across. If I had an abortion I would be sooo mad, at myself, and others who wouldn’t try to help, then all of a sudden you come across someone who wants to help and you ask “where were you when I needed you?” I’ve met women who have had abortions and they are pro-life now and darn good at talking to others outside of those clinics. Kind of like when people who have been abused find themselves drawn into social work to help those who have been where they have, perhaps that was God’s plan for them, to go through it so they know it and know how to help others. I believe those babies are praying for their parents to come home and not make it have happened for nothing. People do need to worry more about their souls, our bodies are left behind in the end.
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
Mary Kay says:
Pansy,
Did you see the post I wroteto you on the sioux abortion clinic blog.
Just referenced a a book I read that reminded me of you.
MK
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
Mary Kay says:
Rosie,
It seems like Lucy is gone anyway. It must be hard to come to a website and know that EVERYONE there opposes your view on something you feel passionate about. I’d probably be defensive too (LOL)
MK
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 2:18 pm
Mary Kay says:
John,
You guys do a great job! Almost everything you have on here is also on “Spirit Daily” which means loads of people are seeing it.
Information and education…that’s the key to this whole mess!
Keep up the excellent work,
MK
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
Sunnyday says:
Rosie,
I think you’re doing a wonderful job of helping others by relating your experience. If you brought anyone down by it, it wasn’t me. It’s just that I’m still adjusting to my work at Pro-Life, where I hear many stories and have encountered a few girls who during their decision-making as to what to do about being pregnant out of wedlock. The mere thought that someone is contemplating destroying a tiny life (and one who is her own child) gets me down temporarily.
So, going to this site is an “upper” of sorts for me =)
I am inspired by all you moms (and dads). And Mary Kay is right — John and everyone else behind this site are doing a great job! Keep it up!
Sunny
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 7:00 pm
Lucy says:
Mary Kay,
I have read what you said. I have been a combinination of busy, exhausted and thinking. Thinking about how to respond to you. It occurs to me that the things that I took as offensive more than likely do not seem offensive to you, which would make this an honest misunderstanding. I did not mean to offend you, despite the fact that I did, and so therefore I can understand how it can obviously work both ways.
We are simply on two different pages as to how things operate. The question is whether or not we can communicate these ideas peacefully. I will, for my part, make full attempts to recall that more than likely the things that I take as offensive, were more than likely not meant in such a manner. Hopefully if I can bring them to your attention in the moment you will be able to explain them to me in regard to what the actual intention was.
It is my belief that your intentions are good but my soul is more alive now than it ever has been. I am doing things that I never thought I would be able to do. I have worked very hard to have the strength to do those things. I am proud of the accomplishments that I have made, and eager to enjoy the pride that comes with future accomplishments. It isn’t always easy, I still have the noise in my head that was put there by others assuring me that I had no options but failure. I work very hard to not listen to that, and to instead focus on the belief that I have in myself. I am fortunate enough to have a selection of good friends who are also very supportive of my efforts. I am very grateful for them. A few of them are even Anti-abortion. I call them anti-abortion as well, generally it is regarded without offense, so I hope that it will be taken the same way here.
It is difficult to come to a place where I know that I will be met with what is essentially a solid wall of opposition. There are more challenging things in life though. Amongst them, watching things you believe in being removed, while you stood silently by and did nothing. I know we are at odds, but I think we can probably agree on that.
If you would like to make another attempt at engaging in a conversation, I am willing. As I stated, I will try to keep my focus on asking what your intention was rather than assuming.
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 9:23 pm
Lucy says:
#
I don’t think Lucy was baiting us for a dictionary definition of life. However, I will still adapt one of the definitions from John’s entry to provide a short definition of “life” as I define “pro-life.”
Life: “The interval of time between natural conception and natural death.”
This interval of time, during which we as humans are created by God and our parents as individuals who are different from any person who has ever lived before us or who will live in the future, and are from conception imbued with an eternal soul that enables us to discern right from wrong and good from evil; this is what I defend when I declare myself to be pro-life.
Yes, I care deeply about abortion, the destruction of innocent life. I also care about euthanasia, and the dismissal in modern society of any life that does not conform to modern ideas of “productivity” and “usefulness.” The death penalty, as it exists in the United States, is also a violation of the respect that “life” deserves. For that matter, Supermax prisons are very problematic, for they also deny the humanity of the souls that live inside their walls. (As a side discussion, I’ve often wondered what is less respectful of life, the death penalty or Supermax prisons- any volunteers?)
You see, if somebody is truly pro-life, abortion should be the preeminent, but not only, offense against human life that he or she should protest against. I oppose the phrase “anti-abortion” because that is a gross understatement of what is important.
Lucy, how did I do? I know we may disagree on many of the things I just said, but does this help you understand what at least some of us mean by “life?”
Everyone else, is there a main point I forgot?
Comment posted June 5th, 2006 at 3:05 pm
#
Michael says:
Please forgive me, I’m still feeling the effects of the nice knock on the head I suffered earlier today. From my previous post, when I say…”I oppose the phrase “anti-abortion” because that is a gross understatement of what is important…”, I mean…
“I oppose the phrase ‘anti-abortion’ because that is a gross understatement of the breadth of what is important.”
I wasn’t baiting for anything Michael, but you are correct in your assumption that I can open a dictionary and was looking for something a little more abstract. How did you do is an interesting question at the end. I don’t know how you did, as I said, I wasn’t baiting. I was asking. Why don’t you tell me, how did you do?
While I find your answer curious for a number of reasons, such as the imbedding of an eternal soul. I think that is interesting. I find all kinds of questions in it of course. It’s an idea that can be found in Hinduism in sort, though the phrasing is different. Socrates also examines a similar theory. It leads to fatalistic beliefs generally, that sometimes consider it a possibility that a soul might have been sent into a woman, and she is meant to abort the soul, because there is a lesson involved for both. It’s interesting to involve the idea of an eternal soul, implicating immortality, and them meshing it with the concern for mortality. I’m not attempting to take a stab at you, just so its clear. As I said, I wasn’t actually baiting, just asking. I was a bit upset when I asked, but I would have asked anyway. I’m just intrigued by your answer. It’s very interesting and intricate. It holds a lot in it, and relates to a number of religions.
While, I’m not an expert, I have explored almost any religion you can name. I was looking for the right religion as it were. It was my understanding that there had to be a right religion. Your ideas are a culmination of a variety of religions. It’s very interesting, and very deep.
I must tell you that though you obviously won’t believe me, that I do actually place a high value on life. The beliefs that I hold drive my position as much as your beliefs drive yours. That you take issue with my reference to you as ant-abortion, implies that as the opponent I would have to be anti-life. Which is enourmously far from the truth.
As far as how you did. It’s your life. You define it. I can’t define your life, or determine how you use it anymore than you can define mine or determine what I do with mine.
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
Lucy says:
Michael,
I hope your head is feeling better by the way.
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
Lucy says:
John,
No, really wasn’t looking for a dictionary definiton. Thank you though.
Comment posted June 6th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
Michael says:
All right! I get to write a super-long post!
Lucy,
I had another comment that I originally erased, and I forgot to erase the word “baiting” in the one that posted. “Baiting” was my original impression, when I saw the same post from you on multiple threads, and the animated exchanges you were having with Mary Kay. The more I thought about it, though, the more I realized that you wanted to make sure that someone answered your question. Please excuse my use of that word.
When I asked you, “How did I do?,” I guess I was asking if my response made sense and was coherent; if I was able, to use your words, “not to explain when they [I] believe life begins, but to define what they [I] understand it to be. For people that define themselves as Pro-life this should be a simple task. After all, what are you Pro.”
(By the way, I think everyone in the pro-life movement should seriously ponder the question, “What are you Pro?” It is a very good one, and I hadn’t thought about it for a while.)
Also, I know my definition doesn’t speak for everyone on these boards, but I do think my answer is pretty mainstream Catholic. This is the frame of mind that many of us are coming from, and I would be happy to converse with you about any point you desire. Unfortunately, I don’t have as much free time to respond as often as some of the others, but I will get back to any questions you ask of me as soon as I can.
One place I don’t think I made myself clear, however, is the concept of an eternal soul. My knowledge of Hinduism is very limited, so please correct me if I’m wrong, but Hindus believe there are more or less a finite number of souls in the world, and that they keep getting reincarnated, correct? I don’t mean eternal soul in this manner. Instead, at the moment of conception, a new soul is created at that moment that will last for all eternity.
As far as the pro-life/anti-life question, let me ask you a question: If you call me anti-abortion, and are therefore pro-abortion?
I don’t really think so. I believe your opinion is that women should have abortion available as an option if faced with the difficult situation of being pregnant in sub-optimal conditions. Similarly, I don’t think you are anti-life because you disagree with some (all?)of my pro-life beliefs. I do believe you when you say you care deeply about life. If you didn’t care about life, if you didn’t value it, you wouldn’t be asking these questions or replying to posts.
What I don’t like about the term “anti-abortion” is that it does not encompass the totality of the movement, only a significant portion of it. Also, anti-abortion is negative. What I want to do is help create a culture that values the real meaning of the feminine and the masculine; celebrates the bonding and procreative natures of the conjugal act; welcomes all pregnancies, regardless of circumstances in which they were conceived; welcomes, supports, and nurtures the lives that are brought into this world; and treat all those who are alive with the dignity and respect due to a child of God. Ambitious, isn’t it? And a heck of a lot more than “anti-abortion.”
If I want to be called pro-life, however, what should the label be for you? I don’t know, and I don’t want to think of you as a label. I think the most accurate set of labels in the realm of abortion is “pro-abortion rights” and “anti-abortion rights,” but both sides seem to have issues with those terms. Maybe “anti-abortion/pro-choice” is the best set of terms, because we may agree on many of the other “life” issues. Anyway, your call on what label to use, as long as you remember that “anti-abortion” is not all that I stand for.
A couple of other thoughts, before I sign off. First, may I ask how you define life? If you have already posted it, and I missed it, please just let me know the topic and comment number.
Second, I want to second Mary Kay’s comments about grieving for your childhood and adolescence experiences. This may seem weird to you, and I don’t know how well Lauren receives it, either, but many of us on this site love you, and want you to have true happiness. As the parent of an almost 2 y.o. daughter, it brings tears to my eyes to know that people have abused and harmed little ones that are so innocent, so desiring of nothing but love. It reminds me of the time when I learned for sure that Satan, evil, and hell existed, but that will have to wait for some other time.
Finally, my head is feeling better, thank you. I may have given myself a minor concussion on a low-hanging light fixture in the basement at work, but are doing much better today.
Comment posted June 7th, 2006 at 12:23 am
Mary Kay says:
Awww Lucy,
Now you’ve made me cry again. Knowing that you and I can try again is like this huge wieght just got lifted off of my shoulder.
When Michael says that we love you, he doesn’t mean in the same way that we love our friends or family, he means in the sense that we really do care about all people. There is something in us that makes us automatically reach out to anyone in pain, and when you shared your most intimate feelings with us about your childhood, you formed a bond with us that makes us want to reach out and protect you. I don’t know, maybe we all suffer from “saviour complex” But at least that’s better than not caring at all.
You say that you have made great strides in your life lately, and I’m dying to know something about you. I’m thinking that we both need to humanize each other more, because we are after all people, not ideas or words. So what are some of these things that you are doing? (I swear I’m just being nosy, not looking for ammo)…
I was really worried about you, when you didn’t come back, and I must have checked this site 40 times yesterday. I realize we aren’t best buddies (yet??) but I am soooo grateful for a chance to start again.
I really do have a bunny named Lucy. She is the sweetest thing.
MK
Comment posted June 7th, 2006 at 6:04 am
Mary Kay says:
Lucy,
I forgot, what did you think of my def. of life?
MK
Comment posted June 7th, 2006 at 6:05 am
Young Christian Woman says:
I think, as I mentioned earlier, that the basic differences we have come down to when a human being becomes worthy of legal protection. What is your opinion on this, Lucy? Should fetal humans have no rights until birth? I know most of us think that these persons should be protected until the moment of conception, and that Lauren thinks that the protection of these children should be put in place sometime during the second trimester.
I freely accept being anti-abortion. I think that is an accurate and specific definition when we are speaking mainly about abortion. The abolitionists did not have to style themselves “pro-freedom” to have the moral high ground. S