I dont like beer. I love hot dogs. Satan will be DJing at our house of sin naturally lol. You’re more than welcome to come by.

If your god is real this is not proof that the thoughts you offer as belonging to he/she, are actually an extract of. Even by citing documents of your church, or higher authorities of the church, you only establish that at some point in time these ideas have been positioned on paper. You only confirm that there are other humans willing to echo your claims, or you are echoing theirs, you can have it either way, It matters not. Therefore, all of the halls that you can fill with papers are empty, and all of the men are mute by the fact that they cannot produce their alleged source.

I can pretend to recieve word from some higher power that some rule be imposed upon humanity. All evidence indicates that I could acquire a substantial mob to echo my assertians. I could certainly write these ideas down, though it is probable that some members of my mob of followers will jot down my thoughts for me. Over time the mob will grow bigger, and if the name of the game is whoever can convince the most people of their claims must be closer to the truth than any, then I certainly could become a contender. What would stop me, my gender? Certainly I could find a man to pretend that he is I, and that should seal the deal.

Yet, all of my claims to direct communication with this alleged higher power should not persuade you to believe me. If I tell you that terrible things will happen to you if you question me, this should raise an extreme degree of suspicion. If I have the truth then why in the world do I need to mask it with untellable horrors? If I threaten to chase you even into death, a threat that you cannot prove or disprove as being sincere while alive, would you take me more or less seriously? That I should play on your emotions at every turn, and tell you that you must obey me because a higher authority I offer no evidence of, save perhaps a tree, should you pay me more or less regard?

If you cannot produce evidence of your god that does no better than the evidence that I could offer to support my alleged higher power, than why should I respond differently? If you have communicated with your god and they have given you orders then perhaps it would be wise for you to assume that your god was speaking to you personally for a reason. Perhaps it would be counted as feasible that the same god that finds the time and energy to communicate with you might also make time to inform me. Perhaps if they have no message to deliver to me personally, as surely if they are all that you say, they would wish me to listen, and understand that I will not take the word from you or any other, therefore, they would take the time to contact me directly. As this has not happened, I have no choice but to believe that they are either non existant or have no concerns regarding my life.

I would also assume that for all of the concern you seem to believe that this god of yours has with abortion, than I would surely have had contact. Afterall, I have first had one. I do think that had your god come to directly intervene that might have stopped me. They would more than likely, being the all powerful god as you claim, have been in possession of a very persuasive arguments. Of course, if I found anything in the religions in the world that do not cause me to feel outright disdain for their entire form, it was approval of my actions. And, no the reason that I despise Christianity is not because it would tell me that I’m wrong. Crack a bible, if you call abortion murder, the bible is actually quite the fan of murder. In fact, the bible betrays most of your assertions as belonging to something besides it. There is of course agreement in the degradation of women and the pursuit of power.

Certainly a woman who does not regret her abortion, or feel guilt in regards to it, and understands no need to have experienced either, would have been contacted by your god if this had been the case. Yet I have not heard or seen from this god of yours in either case. Therefore leaving me with reason to believe that either they do not exist, or are not concerned.

I have stood up in a gay marriage. I was the maid of honor actually. Certainly, I would have heard something about that, and yet, nothing. Not a thing.

Therefore, if this god of yours does not wish to offer evidence of their existance to me, or criticism for my actions, I certainly don’t understand why I should take your word for it that they view these as wrong. Or for that matter that they are.

I am interested, please provide proof that your god exists. The bible is not reliable evidence, nor is the church. Deism acknowledges the universe as a whole as part of evidence of God, but does not ascribe to the idea of a god that performs tricks, or gives orders. But instead, believe that we have been endowed with what we will need to survive, our minds. That it is our responsibility to determine how and when to utilize these things. Thus we have learned what to and not to eat. How to grow our food. How to ensure clean water. How to make medication out of basic plant life. How to eat higher quality so that we can be healthier. Sometimes the cost in the quality can be offset by the fact that the increased nutrients can make up for quantity, allowing us to maintain at lower levels. It stands to reason that we are also to determine whether or not it is wise for us to have children at that point, and that we should use the brain that we were given to prevent a pregnancy from continuing.

There is no consistant rational for denying the production of mans mind in one area because it defies gods will, and accepting the product in another area under the claim that it is gods will. I certainly don’t think that you would like to claim that your bible makes direct references to life support, or anestesia, or heart transplants, or operations that enable people to walk, or see, or speak, yet these come from the same place that allows us to decide whether or not it is appropriate for us to carry children at that time.

To arbitrarily decide that one is bad and the other is good, when lives are at risk in all of them, is bizarre at best. Though I hardly think that the motivation is that pure.

Bottom line. You say that you are getting your marching orders from this god of yours. Prove that this god is there, and prove that these orders belong to them. Until then, you follow the orders. I didn’t get the memo.

Please remember that the U.S. was the last to enter both of those wars. We were the last to enter because we refused to do so until it was an inescapable reality that it would effect us. It took the very self centered America to take the monsters in question to their knees. Because only the self centered America was composed of men and women focussed on their own best interests, therefore, attempting to develop new ideas that would improve their own lives. That these things help others is purely by default.

Those who were not slaves worked for what was right. They worked to remove the ability of others to strip others of the right to decide how to live their lives. You’ll also note that the issue at hand was not whether or not the masters were allowing slaves to keep a pulse. The slaves were worth more with their bodies in tact than not. It was something else that was being fought for.

That you feel that you are sacrificing yourself when you clean the toilet is…gross. I mean, if you were the only one there would it not be in your best interest to have a clean toilet? Wait, you don’t pee in the toilets? I’m going to assume that I’ve misunderstood.

If you think it is self sacrifice to take the dogs out to pee…I mean they are going to pee somewhere.

But I’m hoping you love your husband. I’m expecting that you find pleasure in seeing him happy. The same in reverse for the steaks.

No, that wasn’t what this country was founded on, it is what they were seeking to escape. It is what it is slowly being altered into. The closer we get to an altruistic society in which you think of others first and yourself last if ever, the worse off things get.

If you make me carry a child to term that I do not want, it will not be a loving experience. It will be oppression. You will force me to sacrifice myself to something I do not want. That is the point. Thank you for making it. As has been argued in Free Inquiry’s last issue, A car ride is very enjoyable, kidnapping is not. Sex is enjoyable, rape is not.

I know you view sex as an agreement to carry something around inside of me while it grows into something that I will then have to care for forever whether I like it or not, but certainly you can understand how I don’t send out that invite at all. I don’t sign that agreement, and as you have just acknowledged that there is a problem in making me allow it use my body against my will, I really don’t see what the issue is.

If we had been spying on you and discovered that you were going to move in with your boyfriend, you might have a case in calling us busybodies. But since you volunteered the information on a sight that has made no secret of the fact that we believe living together without the benefit of marriage is morally unacceptable, it would seem that you made it our business…and by the way, they aren’t “OUR” morals…they’re God’s…but good try.

MK

By the way, I take it this means we won’t be coming over for those hot dogs and beer?

With the lastest study on co-habitation only 10% of those who are living together will have marriages which last for a lifetime. When you choose the man of your dreams to marry don’t you intend to want it to last for a lifetime? By co-habitating your chances of separating/divorce just sky-rocket! Why put yourself against odds which are so hard to defeat?

Mike ”

Why does my goal have to be marriage? We’re happy, we’ve been dating for 3 1/2 years and we want to live together. Oh i’m sorry I have a lack of morals because they aren’t yours! God you people really are busybodies

With the lastest study on co-habitation only 10% of those who are living together will have marriages which last for a lifetime. When you choose the man of your dreams to marry don’t you intend to want it to last for a lifetime? By co-habitating your chances of separating/divorce just sky-rocket! Why put yourself against odds which are so hard to defeat?

Mike

Yeah well, houses of sand and all that…

If you read what I wrote to Lucy, you’d know that we couldn’t care less who you sleep with. That’s something you’ll have to explain to Someone else at a later date. The only thing we stand outside and protest against is abortion. You’re personal lack of morals are none of our concern…Now on the other hand, if that was a left handed way of inviting us all over for cold beer, hot dogs and conversation, you might have some takers…

by the way, you must have a very small derrierre…you are always laughing it off…must look kind of funny…

MK

Yep.

Cohabitation Ends in Separation 90% of the Time

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jul/06072106.html

So much for those who feel cohabitation is practicing marriage before the actual wedding. Although I believe most of us on this website already knew this!

Mike

#
Lucy says:

Pansy,
No, we don’t honor self sacrifice in this country.

Tell that to the veterans of world war I and world war II. Tell that to the people who stood up against slavery even though they themselves weren’t slaves.

You seem to think that self-sacrifice is cancelled out if the sacrificer benefits from the sacrifice. This is not so. Self sacrifice means putting someone elses needs before your own. Every time I clean the toilets in my house (even though I don’t pee in them) I am self-sacrificing. Everytime I take the dogs for a walk I am self-sacrificing. Every time I eat at my husbands favorite restaurant I am self sacrificing (I hate thai food). Everytime he eats at mine, he is self sacrificing (He hates steak). This doesn’t mean that I don’t benefit from a clean bathroom, enjoy a sunny day in the park or get to eat at a restaurant. It just means that I put others before myself.

I think this country was built on self-sacrifice. Men who left their native homelands, families, comforts, to brave a new world that was hostile and unknown. These men sacrificed a great deal so that their children, and their childrens children and you and I and bob down the street could all have the life we have now. If you are forced to self sacrifice it is oppression. But if given freely, it is and expression of love.

MK

I said this weeks ago…
#

Lucy,

Lucy says: ” There is no murder being committed in an abortion. There is the removal of a fetus which cannot survive on its own, and so therefore, subsequently dies.”

How can it die if it wasn’t alive?

MK

Comment posted July 10th, 2006 at 7:01 am

Lucy,

Again I ask you…how can something die if it isn’t alive. If it is alive and you are the cause of it’s death, how is that not taking it’s life. If it did nothing to deserve it’s life being taken, how is that not murder? If it is not human what is it?

But this argument that something needs a brain to be alive is ridiculous. Moss is alive. Sponges are alive. If the life force exists then something is alive. We only consider something dead when the brain shuts down and the heart stops because we have no way of knowing when the the soul leaves the body. We are very careful before we pronounce somebody dead because we have been wrong in the past…people that appeared dead were actually still alive. This is because until the soul leaves the body death to the physical self has not occured. By the same token, once a soul enters a body (with or without a brain) it becomes alive. Thus an embryo/blastocyst, by virtue of having a soul albeit know brain activity is still alive. The same way a plant is alive once cell division begins to occur. Plants don’t have souls so ending their life is not the grave error that ending human life is, but nonetheless pulling a plant out of the ground (brainless though it is) means that a once living thing will now be a dead thing.

I cannot emphasize enough that we do not believe life is measured by the physical alone. You once asked for a definition of life. Try this: Human life begins the minute the soul enters the body, and the soul enters the body at the moment of conception.
You do not have to believe this to make it so. It’s reality exists regardless of your accepting it’s truth. Taking a babies life at anytime, destroys the souls chance to discover who it is and to follow it’s own path back to God. This is a God given right. Not a constitutional one. I know you don’t believe in God, but it still remains the truth. And I above all else, liberty, life, love, hope, all of it…I worship Truth. And God is Truth. I seek truth in all things and don’t let my beliefs get in the way. If something is true I want to know it, even if it goes against everything that I have held to be true up to that point. Don’t you want the same? Are you really so rebellious of God that you won’t believe in Him even if it means shortchanging yourself and keeping you from knowing the truth? I could understand if you let down all, and I do mean ALL of your defenses, gave God a shot, (the real God, not the garbage you have been fed up til now) andTHEN found Him wanting, but to just dismiss Him out of hand because of a few bad experiences with lousy examples of christians…well that just seems counter productive…

MK

Ahhhh…and therein lies the rub. God does not exist to please you. He doesn’t need your approval or permission. He is what He is. And I am so sorry that instead of seeing the choices that human beings made as being monstrous you choose to see God as such.
The real tragedy is that you don’t understand and have no desire to understand this God. If you did, you would realize that He is all love and all merciful. He doesn’t need you Lucy, but He desires you. He is the one who allows you not to accept Him. Your “rights” do not come from the constitution. They come from God. Your free will does not come from Kant, Ayn Rand, Thomas Jefferson, Beethoven of Deputy Dawg. It comes from God. If He did not choose you to have free will, you wouldn’t have it no matter how many philosphers said that you do. Freedom comes from above and exists within. No law can touch true freedom. It can take away comfort, or food, or priveleges, but if you have God you are free forever…God does not need you Lucy, but you need Him…and want and need are two different things.
MK

As Ayn Rand identifies the fact that it doesn’t matter what financial means you start with if you know how to create wealth. Those who don’t know how to create wealth won’t be able to keep it, and those who learn how to create it won’t be without it for long. This is of course in a just system

That leads into Aristotle and others who were busy learning how the world around us and how to manipulate it and examining all of the possilbe combinations. The end result of these guys, who followed their own beliefs instead of doing as told, are things that exist in the modern world.

Had they sacrificed themselves to the wills of others, we wouldn’t know how to use fire.

An arrangement where you voluntarily take care of your child should not count as sacrifice, but a willful exchange. While the child benefits from the fact that you provide it the things that it needs to flourish, you benefit from watching the child grow. You marvel at all of the firsts, and hold high hopes for their future. Everyone is getting something out of the deal. You will recieve joy, and they will recieve joy.

There is a lot more thought involved in becoming a doctor than there is in becoming a mother. There should be thought involved in when to become a mother, and how to be a good mother, but there is no real thought involved in getting pregnant. In fact, a lack of thought seems to be the best method. Comparing the accomplishment of becoming a Doctor and getting pregnant is therefore not terribly realistic.

Science requires consistancy. If the death is the end of life, it is neccessary for their to be life before it can end. If a brain must die in order for death to occur a brain must live in order for life to occur. Therfefore, as no brain is formed at conception you cannot argue that anything without a brain can either live or die. Therefore, life does not begin at conception. Which means that in sheer physical terms the earliest that you can begin your conversation is at about 5 weeks.

http://www.wprc.org/trimester1.phtml

There are other sites that suggest that it may be around the 6th week that the brain begins to form, however, which means that consideration for the potential of the 4th week as a jumping off point can be granted. However, without arguing that one can live without a brain, and redefining death, I’m afraid conception is not a viable starting point.

OK, let’s say there is an unknown whether of not a preborn child is a human. I have not proven to you it is a human, you have not proven she is not. The common ground is a question mark. There is no science that can prove for a fact that a person is not a person from conception. There are opinions, POVs, maybe even some scientific theory out there that I don’t know of, but there is no scientfic law that states when life begins.

On one side you have women who for the most part choose to create this life, whose lives will be difficult if they have a child, but may not be as horrible as they think (as adoption is an option as well), or yes their lives may be difficult. Motherhood is sacrifice, but it is love as well. Life is sacrifices and for some reason we elevate certain sacrifices as acceptable hard work such as being ambitious in the career world, and going to school (I guess things that mean more money in the end). People pat women on the back when they mention they are sleepy for pulling 36 hour shifts during medical residencies. People pity or think mothers are stupid when they do this for their children, or label parenthood as horrible. Sacrificing yourself for another, even your own, is not a virtue in our culture.

On the other side in this unknown you are taking a chance that either you are terminating a possible difficult situation through a simple surgical procedure, or you are causing your own child, a baby who was created to you by your own actions, to endure going through a procedure to be bloodily and painfully ripped up to shreds.

Again, what I am trying to convince you is not to change you stance on abortion, but simply to illustrate why the “woman’s right” argument seems trivial to us. When you weigh the even “possible” violent murder on a scale against a woman’s inconvenience, one holds much, much more gravity. It has nothing to do with wanting to make slaves of women, imprison them, dictate to them, it has everything to do with genocide to us.

Let’s say someone gave you a detonation device. It was up to you to use. When you let the detonator go off you are told that it will cause people in some far away land to die. Not just simply die, but be mangled to death. The detonator could go off in the middle of an unpopulated place and no one will be harmed, or it could go off in the middle of Hong Kong for all you know. Why take that chance?

If your god does exist, I certianly may choose to pay no heed, which I do choose, to pay absolutely no attention. Of course, if it doesn’t exist, then my choice is silly isn’t it.

I do not believe that a fetus and a baby are the same thing. I am trying to explain to you on the other post what it is I mean. I will figure out how to explain it.

What if you find out that all that you have really done is destroyed the lives of countless women. You will tell me that you’ve done no such thing. You don’t know what they will count as having their lives ruined however. Why do you stand as a better judge of how they should live their lives than they? I can’t determine how they should live their lives.

There are some days I am doing well to figure out how to live my own, never mind the lives of others.

http://polycarp.org/overviewbreastcanceroralcontraceptives.htm

Mike