It is beyond me why you wish to speak with me. I think that you have made it perfectly clear that you believe yourself to be superior to me. When I attempted to create a situation for peaceful conversation you responded to that in a snotty fashion. I have enough sources of exhaustion; I have no need to add to the list a woman who is upset because she is a woman she is disgusted with won’t attend to her insults.

Yet, I will answer this. Women have this funny idea that they get to get pregnant, believe that abortion is murder, therefore have the child and then tell the rest of the world they have to feed it. Guess what, it doesn’t work that way.

Now, you may surely have as many children as you would like. You don’t need my permission for that, well, in some countries you might. That you may decide to have children does not mean that you get to force others to feed your children. When I say if you can’t afford to feed your children then don’t have children, I mean that if you feel feeding your children is important. Assuming that there will be some kind of system set up to feed the children is not terribly moral. I understand of course, that how the children eat is not actually a concern of the anti’s.

Yes, have all the children you want.

If you can’t feed the children, do not believe that some one else must.

If it is unimportant to you if the children starve to death; you’ll be dealt with when the time comes.

I hope that is sufficient explanation for you. I have no doubt that you are busy looking for a way to twist it into something you can assault. Have fun.

But she also said:
I am quite Pro-Choice regarding a womans right to choose what happens to her body and when. I am quite Pro-Choice regarding a womans right and ability to think for herself….
The thing is, we have no need to try to legislate against you. We believe that choosing to have a child is a legitimate choice. We would never try to enforce mandatory abortions for women that get pregnant under certain circumstances or anything.

First Lucy says that under certain circumstances, a person should not have children. They should abort, or at least contracept. Then she claims that people should have the freedom to choose, and she doesn’t want to tell people when they should get pregnant or have an abortion.
Also, if you have no need to legislate against us, why are you all for regulations on our free speech? Why aren’t you advocating better information for women undergoing abortions?

Lucy thinks it would be best if
Children can know that their parents wanted nothing more in the world than to have them. They can feel confident that they are with people who do not want a life without them, and will therefore do everything and anything to help them grow and learn. Such environments for children create ease of learning and growth, it creates confidence. I’ve known the children that came out of thse homes, it makes a difference. These children are generally more successful, happier, and are more responsible and respectable adults.

Studies show that abused children are more likely to be planned and to be wanted during pregnancy.

I think that children are not a product. I think it is silly and sad when people try to conceive a certain gender or time the birth for a certain season. I think that children have a right to be planned–but not by us. I think children have a right to be loved just as they are, for who they are, from the moment the parents know they exist. The fact that my children died at two weeks does not make them less worthy of love than any other children. The fact that I never held them in my arms and saw their faces does not mean that I do not love them. The fact that they have no birth certificate does not mean that they are not real. And the fact that they were not as developed as Lucy or Mary Kay or I does not mean that they are any less valuable.

It means that we have no obligation to buy where we don’t find value, therefore, if a business does well, they can believe that they must be the best. All competition is welcome, if they can’t do better, then they aren’t the best. The consumer can take comfort in knowing that the merchant wants to be the best, and therefore has invested their effort into it all, because they know that no consumer is obligated.

Children can know that their parents wanted nothing more in the world than to have them. They can feel confident that they are with people who do not want a life without them, and will therefore do everything and anything to help them grow and learn. Such environments for children create ease of learning and growth, it creates confidence. I’ve known the children that came out of thse homes, it makes a difference. These children are generally more successful, happier, and are more responsible and respectable adults.

To engage in this requires a knowledge of self, not selflessness. You must know what you want and why you want it. You must think about the future, and whether or not the long term effects are likely to cause the desired results. For instance; as much as I might want to have chocolate cake every day I know that it isn’t good for me to have every day. For one thing I know that it will force me to buy a new and larger wardrobe. Making eating chocolate cake an expensive habit.

It is not worth it to risk a long and happy marriage over a member of the opposite sex who pays a bit of attention and is found attractive. At least this is generally the thought of those who examine such matters objectively. Despite whatever temptation, the pain of the loved one at home outweighs any potential pleasure, and the pain is less desireable than the pleasure is desireable. I don’t understand what love can be found in an arrangement that is maintained only due to a promise that was made once upon a time.

There have been some incredible statements made on here regarding how easy it is to just remain pregnant and then keep the child. Or how easy it is to just give the child away, or at least how those options are the only ones that any woman should be permitted to consider. Would you like to tell me how that enables every woman to be an individual? Do you honestly wish to tell me that you know what my circumstances were? Do you honestly know how I felt? Do you honestly think you know who I am?

Do you understand that I consider having had an abortion to have been a moral decision. That it was moral not to bring a child into the world that I could not care for, did not want, and was far to messed up to handle? Do you know that I consider it immoral to bring children into the world if you cannot provide for them? Do you understand that I do not think that I did the right thing. I KNOW THAT I DID THE RIGHT THING! I don’t wonder about whether I did the right thing, I know that I did, and thus I have no regrets, because there was no better option. I did not end a life; I prevented it from beginning.

Do you think that immoral behavior comes easy to me? Or do you think that what you believe to be immoral behavior comes easy to me? Do you think that I am confused? That I should understand that it is moral to bring children in the world and let them starve? That it is moral to make other people pay for children that aren’t theirs because you say it is moral to steal from their productive efforts?

It is immoral for you to tell me what I must think. It is immoral for you to legislate against my right to think for myself in a manner that is different than you. The thing is, we have no need to try to legislate against you. We believe that choosing to have a child is a legitimate choice. We would never try to enforce mandatory abortions for women that get pregnant under certain circumstances or anything. It isn’t due to a lack of morals, but due to an abundance of. It is due to a respect for human life. A trust that all human beings are essentially good, and competent. That women can take care of themselves, and will make the choice that is best for them. That they will have their reasons, and will accept the consequences that come with their actions. Including potential regret, sorrow, guilt.

Please don’t be so passive about calling us immoral in the future. It isn’t so. I don’t want to be a dictator. I just don’t want anyone else to be one either.

2 points:

#1. You obviously didn’t like people making assumptions and speculations about your life and what kind of moral footing those experiences put you on. The same holds true for us. You have no way of knowing how easy or difficult or whatever our lives are or have been very simply because we feel life starts at conception. Nor should you expect such statements that basically state we are clueless on the issue because we had “easy lives” to go over very well.

#2. An easy life does not automatically mean someone is pro-life, nor does a difficult life mean someone is pro-choice. The opposite is the same. A hard life does not mean someone is pro-choice nor does an easy life mean someone is pro-choice. Also, it does not mean that someone who has had a hard life gets a pass because immoral behaviour comes easy to them, nor does it mean people who have lead some pretty episodic-free lives mean behaving in a moral manner is not always difficult as well. Still, all are equally responsible for their behaviour.

Are you telling Lauren that you believe she and I are abusive?

Whatever is the point of that post otherwise?

Why hold people accountable for having children they can’t take care of? I mean, they have every right to demand that people who don’t know them, probably don’t want to know them, take care of children that just happened to show up. That they had no way of preventing at all right. It’s the fault of the people who do live within their means right.

If I manage to save a few dollars and there is someone starving to death then I have no right to the few dollars that I saved right.

It will become my right to have what I’ve earned just after I give away what I’ve earned? Is that how this works? I don’t think so.

This is simple. If you can’t afford to feed children then don’t have children. It is not the responsibility of every one else to take care of someone elses children.

Once again; for those subscribing to the mindblowing idea that it takes a village to raise a child; I suggest taking a poll before you have a child to find out if the village thinks the time is right. If I didn’t agree to feed your kid before hand, it is not going to happen later.

it’s because somebody’s not sharing

Your liberal sister. But you see, I can differentiate between on the court and off the court. On the court I’ll take Bonnie on any day, but off the court – well, I love her music. I can respect a person even while disagreeing with them. You should try it sometime. It’s not that hard. Really. You can probably get a “Arguing without hitting below the belt for dummies” book somewhere. Or you could write it. No scratch that. Your unfamiliar with the subject matter.

By the way (lmao) I thought your behind was looking smaller…

MK

World Net Daily?! that was your unbiased research group!?!?!?!? lmao

Unless you haven’t read anybody’s story I don’t know how you have come to that conclusion.

I was thinking that too.

Some people come out of being abused thinking they have a right to be abusive.

Some people come out of abuse realizing no one should be abused and realizing every life is precious and honorable.

” They have an easy life Lucy, remember that”

Unless you haven’t read anybody’s story I don’t know how you have come to that conclusion.

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

A British researcher tomorrow will present data from the UK that shows a connection between abortion and breast cancer in British women.

According to the Coalition on Abortion/Breast Cancer, British researcher Patrick Carroll, director of the Pensions and Population Research Institute in London, will present his findings at the Joint Statistical Meetings at the Minneapolis Convention Center – the largest gathering of statisticians in North America.

Carroll’s research adds to a body of evidence showing women who have had one or more abortions – especially one prior to birthing their first child – are more susceptible to breast cancer.

The Coalition on Abortion/Breast Cancer reports Carroll’s research cites three British breast cancer trends.

The first trend is that upper-class women are the most likely to develop breast cancer and die of the disease. For other cancers, lower social classes experience higher incidence and mortality rates. Abortion before a first birth and delayed first birth among upper class women provide the best explanations for this trend, Carroll says.

The second trend involves regional breast cancer rates of the British Isles. Breast cancer rates are greatest in the southeast (116 per 100,000) where abortion rates are higher than in other regions, whereas breast cancer is lowest in Ireland (97 per 100,000) where abortion is prohibited.

Carroll’s research finds a third trend in the increase in breast cancer between 1971 and 2002. During those years, incidents of the disease rose 70 percent in the UK.

Says the Coalition on Abortion/Breast Cancer:

“Carroll’s research is significant because he used national data reporting breast cancers and abortions. Therefore, it’s free of any possibility of a hypothetical problem called ‘recall bias.’ Opponents of the abortion-cancer link have never provided credible evidence of recall bias. Nevertheless, they argue that research depending on interviews with women to report their abortion histories is flawed because more cancer patients than healthy women accurately report their abortions.”

Evidence pointing to an abortion-breast cancer link, commonly known as the ABC link, is present in 29 of 38 published studies conducted worldwide since 1957. Seventeen of the 29 are statistically significant, which means there’s a 95 percent certainty that the association is not by chance.

In 1996 Dr. Joel Brind, a professor of biology and endocrinology at Baruch College of the City University of New York and perhaps the most well-known ABC link researcher, conducted a meta-analysis and review of all the studies done in the previous decade and found a 30 percent increased risk of breast cancer for women choosing an abortion after a first full-term pregnancy and a 50 percent risk increase for women choosing an abortion before a first full-term pregnancy.

The basic biology underlying the ABC link boils down to the fact that breast cancer is linked to reproductive hormones, particularly estrogen. At conception, a woman’s estrogen levels increase hundreds of times above normal – 2,000 percent by the end of the first trimester. That hormone surge leads to the growth of “undifferentiated” cells in the breast as the body prepares to produce milk for the coming baby.

Undifferentiated cells are vulnerable to the effects of carcinogens, which can give rise to cancerous tumors later in life. In the final weeks of a full-term pregnancy, those cells are “terminally differentiated” through a still largely unknown process and are ready to produce milk. Differentiated cells are not as vulnerable to carcinogens.

However, should a pregnancy be terminated prior to cell differentiation, the woman is left with abnormally high numbers of undifferentiated cells, therefore increasing her risk of developing breast cancer.

Click Here

Spontaneous abortions, or miscarriages, are not generally associated with increased risk, since they generally occur due to insufficient estrogen hormones to begin with.

Those who denounce an ABC link, such as Planned Parenthood, attack the validity of Brind’s and other researchers’ studies.

“Undaunted by the absence of compelling evidence associating induced abortion with a woman’s risk of developing breast cancer, anti-choice extremists insist on making the connection anyway,” says Planned Parenthood on its website.

MK

I know you said that you feel so beat up here by us Lucy, but you have to remember that “we” are not one person. Just like you are not Lauren and Lauren is not you even though you believe the same things. I am not Quinn, or Michael 2 or anyone but me and I am not trying to trap you (though I can see why you would feel that way) I am honestly trying to understand. And I feel like we talk about more than just the abortion issue. I realize that that is the bottom line here, but you are more complex than your views on this one issue. As long as you keep coming back, I will continue to try to know you better. Isn’t that what this is all about?

MK

The reason I assumed you would know Bonnie Raitt is she is such a strong woman, and advocate of women.

Here’s the rest of the words to that song:

Wounded heart I cannot save you from yourself.
Though I wanted to be brave,
It never helped
For your anger’s like a flood, raging through your veins,
and no amount of love’s enough
to end the pain.

Tenderness and time can heal,
A right gone wrong.
But the anger that you feel,
goes on and on.
And it’s not enough to know, that I love you still
So I’ll take my heart and go,
for I’ve had my fill…

If you listen you can hear,
the angels wings.
Up above your head so near,
they are hovering.
Waiting to reach out for love, when it falls apart.
When it cannot rise above,
a wounded heart.
When it cannot rise above,
a wounded heart.

don’t go all defensive on me now…I was actually thinking of your parents in the first two verses, and how you finally had to walk away because your love wasn’t enough…

mk

The reason I apologized is that when we are on here it is easy to forget that we are not just machines spouting off theories and arguments. When you told me you were abused you brought home how human you were and I felt horrible that I hadn’t taken that into account.

As to why I asked if you had loved before it had nothing to do with being depressed or guilty about your abortion. That never entered my mind. It came more from something that you had said about people not owing each other anything. Like Kathy and her mother (she died by the way). Or letting the guy with the kidney live after he breaks into your apartment.

And it occured to me that perhaps you had never felt real love and therefore couldn’t understand why we would say and do the things that we do because they are motivated by love.

Does that make any sense?

It’s the off court/on court thing again.

I believe you when you say you have no guilt. I just have a hard time understanding why. I don’t think your feeling guilty but denying it. I believe you truly don’t have any guilt. But that concept is so foreign to me and then I realized that it is because you don’t view that baby as a person, so you didn’t love it, so of course you wouldn’t feel guilt. Which led me to, is there anyone you love? You see?

MK

I understand that, I really do. But I beg you to look into your heart and ask yourself if you are blinded by your intense need to stand alone and be free, and if by fighting so vehemently for your right to do so, you aren’t actually imprisoning yourself. We are all people here together. All we have is each other. We are a mess yes, and we screw up yes, but love, real love is all there is. And real love is more important than freedom because real love is what truly sets you free. The very thing you want so badly eludes you because you can’t contain it in laws. You can only attain it by letting go and trusting.

To see it from our point of view, first you must understand that on a very real level, we LOVE these babies. We recognize their little tiny innocent souls. They are not just cells to us. They are God’s miracles. They are our brothers and sisters.

That is why I would have wanted to take you home. So you could have felt this love, and you could have felt safe. So you could have explored freely and with my blessing. My boys are total screw ups. They’re off doing God knows what, and it kills me. But I let them go because I know that that is the only way they will learn. They are old enough now to take what I have given them and find their own way. This is what I would have given to you.

Your parents trying to force you to be something that you were not was a prison. Instead of lovingly nurturing you, guiding you and molding you, they beat you and turned you into exactly the opposite of what they wanted.

Making rules and forcing you to follow them didn’t work. Because love cannot be found in law. And if you have love, you don’t need law. Had I been your mother, you would never have had to fight so hard for the simple right to be who you are. That’s love.
When I see a child in pain, I become enraged. Innocence is so fleeting.

Sometimes when my kevin was younger his brothers were so hard on him. When I asked Danny why they treated him like that, Danny said “so that when the world dumps on him, he’ll be strong and able to handle it.”

I said, “Danny, the world is going to dump on Kevin just like it dumps on everyone, but home and family should be the one place that he doesn’t have to worry about that…it should be the one place that he can escape from that.”

OF course, he didn’t listen, but my point is I would have taken you home so that you too could have a place where you knew your were loved and safe and special and protected from the ugliness that you would inevitably have to face.

The offer still stands. You’re probably too big to fit on my lap now, but you can come to my house anytime you want. You’re never too old for some mothering. No one is. Let me know.
I make a mean soda bread. That and a cup of tea can heal a lot of wounds.

MK

Yet, I have learned that such questions are generally trying to find out how I’m lying. Well, I’ll make it simple. I do not regret having an abortion. I do not feel any guilt. It is not because I am unable to feel regret or guilt. It is not because I am unable to feel loved, or have never been loved. It is not an indication that I am unable to love.

If you are trying to find some way to understand a world where I can exist, regret and guilt free after an abortion, and yet your understanding of everything still stands sound, I can’t help you. I can’t paint myself as the whore you need me to be, because I’m not. I have slept with very few men, and have very strict guidelines, that get stricter every time. It isn’t all that I think about, in fact, unless I am with someone who meets the guidlines, which yes, inlcudes that I care about them, and they care about me, I don’t think about it. I’m not the idiot that you wish us to be. I don’t grant to much credit to I.Q. tests, but the last time I was forced to take one it came out a 130, which according to that test, put me just into gifted. I find pleasure in fine literature, scientific studies, art. You probably need us to be on drugs or alcohal, but I’m not. I don’t touch either. I simply don’t understand. You need me to be in a great deal of pain it seems. Yet, I don’t think I have as much pain as you seem to assign to me.

It angers me to see women reduced to valuable only below the neck. I am an entire person, and I am of the opinion that every woman has the capacity to be an entire person. I believe that a woman who chooses motherhood for reasons, is an entire woman. I believe that a woman who is inflicted with values that degrade her to capable of nothing more, or arguing that this is her highest position, instead of letting her decide what she thinks would make her the best woman, degrades her, it turns her into cattle.

I’m sorry Mary Kay, but each and every time I am attacked on here it becomes harder and harder to believe that it is worth answering questions honestly. How many times have I been told that I am not what I say I am, because it doesn’t exist. It does of course, and I’m it. Well, one of many. I am the truth. Yet, no one seems interested in listening.

I’m tired of opening doors for attacks. If you don’t, someone else will. Pansy, Michael, Mike, Joe, or Rosie will make snotty comments about me. I didn’t actually come on here to be hurt over and over again. I knew that there would be nasty people, it never occurred to me that there were more nasty than not. Shameless too. Do you know I asked you so many times why you were being nasty to me, and until I said that I was the one that was abused, you were content to continue being nasty to me.

I have to know. Why did the fact that they abused me make you stop being nasty?