Choice? Whose Choice?
— Posted by John (August 9, 2006 at 12:44 pm)
I never thought I’d say this:
Run, don’t walk, to the nearest newsstand to find the current issue of Seventeen magazine.
The September issue — available as of August 1 — has a powerful article on page 156 titled, “My Mom Made Me Get an Abortion”. (The article isn’t posted on the Seventeen website; apparently it’s only available in print.)
The lead-in to the article reads:
When Christy, now 18, got pregnant, she decided to keep the baby. But her mother had other plans.
Christy’s story is heartbreaking. She got pregnant by her boyfriend, the first guy she had had sex with. She had every intention of keeping the baby, but was pressured by her mom and boyfriend to have an abortion.
Christy recalls:
That Friday, August 5, Mom, Glen, and I went to the clinic. In the exam room a nurse asked if I wanted the procedure explained to me, and I said no. Then when the doctor came in, I wanted to yell, “No! Wait!”–but the words didn’t come. I started crying hysterically. The doctor inserted something cold and hard inside me; it felt like my insides were being ripped out. I’d never felt such pain. After the procedure, the nurse brought in my mom to calm me down. But when she tried to hug me, I pushed her away. I cried the whole way home, and for the next two weeks, I stayed in my room, crying and sleeping–and thinking about my baby. My mom kept apologizing for being the one who’d pushed for it.
It’s been a year since the abortion, and I still wish I’d had the baby. I think about her every day and write to her in my journal.
God bless you, Christy, for having the courage to speak out about your horrific abortion experience. You are in our prayers.
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claiborne says:
Sancta Maria, ora pro eis.
Sancta Maria, ora pro nobis.
Comment posted August 9th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
John says:
Amen.
Comment posted August 9th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
rosie says:
“My mom kept apologizing for being the one who’d pushed for it. ”
That’s the most disturbing part of the whole story. How sad.
Comment posted August 9th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
RosemaryBogdan says:
I find myself infuriated that this 17 year old was abused in this way. Yes, abused. She was violated. Yet we live in a country that is so confused, so disturbed that laws allow for this kind of treatment of a minor. Lord have mercy on us all.
Comment posted August 9th, 2006 at 9:42 pm
Pansy Moss says:
Rosemary,
Yet we live in a country that is so confused, so disturbed that laws allow for this kind of treatment of a minor.
Many times when we have minor children, we make choices for them that we think are best. I guess that is part of being a parent. (But on the other hand, I am not sure if that would hold true for this girl because once a minor becomes pregnant, she becomes emancipated). Of course I don’t agree with this mother’s choice at all. But people become so frightened, and like you said, our culture is so confused, this mother probably thought she was doing the best.
My father is a deacon. I have known of other deacons (through him) who were actively pro-life, but then had a daughter who became pregnant. For whatever reason, they became so frightened. they did the same thing. Of course I could say I question their commitment to their faith, and other things along those lines. But this is a huge example of the tragedy of legalised abortion. If it was not an option, this would not have happened.
Comment posted August 9th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
Lucy says:
Oddly, uninspired by me, a coworker was discussing her concerns regarding the ease in which her daughter could recieve an abortion without her being aware of it. Her daughter is a minor. There was something she had just read, I don’t remember what. Before you get to excited.
She was equally appalled to know that if her daughters did not want an abortion she could not force them to recieve one. She demanded to know who would pay for the child, and why would she not be permitted a say in what happened to her children that were minors regarding such a thing.
Most clinics refuse to do abortions on women or girls who do not seem to want it. I read where one doctor said if uncertain regarding their actual wishes he would never do so. He said he had never been sued for refusing a procedure, but prior to that policy he had been sued by women who regretted their choices.
Most also believe that the choice is strictly in the hands of the woman that is pregnant. Regardless of age. That her mother persuaded her to have an abortion is not something that I doubt. Women crying in such a situation isn’t neccessarily an indicator that they don’t want to end the pregnancy. If she had actually said No, she would have more than likely found that the doctors were sympathetic to her. If she had said no, she would have more than likely discovered that they would refuse to perform an abortion on her until she was certain, even if that meant never. If her mother persuaded her to say yes again later against her wishes, that would have been between the two of them.
That her mother did not respect her rights to make her own decision is unfortunate. This story could be easily matched by the stories of women who were forced to keep their children however. It is not a reflection on the clinic where it was done. She told them she wanted an abortion. She neglected to speak her mind. The lesson that she should learn for the future is if in doubt ask for more time. She would have been provided it, that is more than likely. Whatever influence the mother had over her would not have influenced the staff.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 12:37 am
Lucy says:
Oh, and to blame legalization is ridiculous. The scenerio would have simply involved a back alley, a rusty hanger, and a deadly infection if this were 1972.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 12:38 am
Young Christian Woman says:
Yes, Lucy. And we all know that if abortion becomes illegal again, antibiotics will too.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 7:19 am
Anne says:
Lucy………I’m not sure where these admirable clinics are that don’t perform abortions on women who clearly don’t want them. I’ve not seen one yet. I’ve sidewalked counseled and prayed in front of over 80 abortion clinics over the last few years, and I can’t remember being at any of them where I didn’t see a girl being dragged in by a mother, boyfriend, etc. with the HELP of clinic escorts, and the girls were already hysterically crying. The majority of the these girls did not emerge from the clinic until hours later, supported by the escorts and whoever accompanied them, and more distressed then she went in. I’ve heard from too many people who used to work IN the clinics who talked about how they had to “Sell” the abortion. This is a multi-million dollar industry.
I am sure this young girl WANTED to speak up. But I am sure all sorts of things were going through her head….what if I speak up and my mom finds out? What if I speak up and they let me out of here..what will my mom do? Will she take me to another clinic? disown me? She was SEVENTEEN years old.
The reason this story is a tragedy is that first of all, if abortion is about the sacred choice..who is doing the choosing? If a women feels forced, either by a loved one OR by her circumstances (i.e i HAVE to have this abortion because..I don’t know what else to do) is that truly a choice? I don’t think women wake up one morning and think, “you I’d like to have an abortion today, wouldn’t that be nice.” The bottom line is that if the procedure was both illegal AND people were more educated about it (like the novel idea of fetal developement vs. the general blob of tissue notion), people would be less likely to a)feel this an option realtistically and b)feel this is an option morally.
We have to work to change the law, but we must also work to change hearts and minds, and show women who ARE scared or alone or cornered that people care what happens to them and that there are people to help give a woman LEGITIMATE options that don’t include killing her child.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 7:55 am
Lauren says:
I have Anne, not like you’ve ever stepped a foot in an abortion clinic. Considering they make you undergo individual counseling and do not let you get the abortion if they detect you really don’t want it. This is one of many reasons I’m against notification laws. I would say the majority of mothers want their daughters to terminate their pregnancy—not keep it.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 8:32 am
Lucy says:
Anne,
I’m sorry, I speak up against people who could do me harm on a regular basis. Sometimes we have to find the courage to stand up to those who attempting force us to act against our best judgement. Sometimes we have to stand up against those who would prevent us from thinking for ourselves. Those who would happily use our bodies for incubators, or those who would force us to terminate a pregnancy that we would have rather kept. Whining about not having done it later, and attempting to blame them for what they might not have known. There is no indication that this girl ever once said this wasn’t what she wanted.
They drag them away from the people outside. The people outside are viewed as a threat. They are upsetting, and you don’t actually have any real knowledge as to why the girl is crying. A friend of mine who was at a local clinic more recently than I for a test told me that she learned that there is mandatory counseling that can take hours. Of course, the clinic that she went to has a local that doesn’t get picketed, which allows them to spend less money on security and more money on taking care of the women that pass through the doors. The escorts know that it is better to find out what is causing the girl to be upset inside rather than outside with the mobs. This is a personal experience, it has nothing to do with crowd approval or disapproval, but the uninvited peanut gallery needs to be escaped, not asked the opinion of.
The clinic that I was at did not have people who were trying to sell anything.
I, for instance, have come on here and said that I have had an abortion and do not feel regret or guilt, and know that I have no reason to feel either. I’ll even tell you who thinks that I killed something. I didn’t kill anything, I prevented it from beginning.
Yes, choosing an abortion because you don’t know what else to do, and don’t take the time to consider other options, or because you have and while it is less than desirable, it is the best option, is indeed the act of making a choice. There is nothing else to call it.
If a woman, regardless of age, because courage doesn’t come at 18, or 48, or any other age, it is developed and acted on. It must be acted on, there is no such thing as latent courage. I’m afraid that there is no possible way of anyone knowing if they are going against your will if you do not say so. Seventeen is a minor, and the mother was more than likely simply treating her like the child that she pictured her to be. It sounds like the mother might have been receptive to discussion, had the young girl simply said I don’t want this. Sadly, the girl will never know. Whining after the fact that she did not speak her mind, and no body read her mind is not worth publication, and certainly doesn’t warrant a reprint. The only way this story would have had any value is if it had expressed her learning that in the future she should express herself regarding what she wants. If she had told other young girls to just have the courage to say something, to say no, to say yes.
Yet, it would seem that she is not attempting to persuade other girls to have courage she lacked. She is complaining that someone did not read her mind. That she shook her head in the wrong direction.
You have no way of knowing what happened inside of those clinics just because you were outside. The girl who walked back out may have still been pregnant and told that she needed to think about it further. Unless you live outside of the clinic, if she had been noticably pregnant walking in and had an abortion, she would not have been released in the same day.
No, actually, historically making abortion illegal has not reduced abortions, it has reduced the safety. The result is more dead or sterilized women, not fewer abortions. To make abortion illegal is an assault against women. It is to wish for botched back alley abortions, it is to wish for people with no training performing what they think might work, it is a return to women harming themselves, or killing themsleves.
To say that you love that which isn’t and wish to save it is ridiculous. To say that you love a fetus that is in my body is nonsense. To say that because you believe that the fetus has more of a right to develop inside of my body than I have to remove it is cruel. It is to degrade me from woman to cow.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 9:19 am
Young Christian Woman says:
Most of those who performed illegal abortions were doctors. The same would be true if abortion were made illegal again. Abortions are still dangerous. They still lead to sterility, to miscarriage, prematurity, and low birth weight in subsequent pregnancies. Certainly they are not safe for the child.
As for love–you say over and over again that we can’t know how you feel. Why, then, do you insist that we cannot feel the way we do? I can love my children, I can love your child, and I can love every child I know about. Who are you to say that I cannot just because you are emotionally challenged in this area? Why do you think you have a window into my heart? To say that I cannot love your child is at least as presumptuous as for me to tell you that you feel guilty about aborting her.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 11:09 am
RosemaryBogdan says:
Pansy Moss, I’m sure her mother did think she was doing what was best for her daughter. And only God can judge her culpability. Still, to tell your daughter she should (or must) have an abortion is objectively wrong– and I would still call it abuse, even if the mother does not realize what she is doing. It is an example of the enormous confusion of our culture on the life issues that this sort of thing happens, and probably regularly. And it is the fact that abortion is legal that lends the act the moral legitimacy that allow for the confusion!
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 11:18 am
claiborne says:
Lucy seems to be exerting an inordinate amount of time and energy defending the saintly staff of abortion clinics. Methinks she doth protest too much…
Guilt and shame make us deny and defend our actions.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 11:29 am
Sparki says:
Lucy, you’re wrong about the pre-1973 abortions. I know a lady who was pregnant in 1970 and her mom wanted her to get an abortion, too. It wasn’t hard. The mother asked a nurse well-known to the family, who arranged for an appointment with a certain doctor.
The pregnant teen prayed and prayed her mom wouldn’t make her go through with it. And as it happened the doctor was called away just as they arrived at the clinic. The other doctor on staff refused to do that abortion on moral grounds, despite being offered lots and lots of money and being threatened to have the practice shut down for some trumped-up reason.
The mom took her teen home and the teen soon moved into a home for unwed mothers. And my husband was born and relinquished for adoption about 7 months later.
I’m quite grateful his biological mother wanted to carry him to term, even though it was hard on her body, disasterous to her relationship with her mother, and a terrible wound to her heart to hand him over to a stable married couple for adoption. He’s a great guy, a talented musician, a devoted husband and father, a kind person who wants to save children from famine and war and save the environment from abuse and materialism and save ALL women from being forced to violate their bodies and their consciences with abortion. He would literally do anything to help any other woman avoid abortion, including giving her a job, a home, food, clothing, emotional support, spiritual support, money to pay for medical care, and adopting the baby if she chose not to parent. After all, he owes his life to a teen with that kind of courage.
You’d like him.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
lauren says:
Claiborne……… Judge not lest you be judged. Or something like that. I prefer blow me, but the first sounds much prettier
Sparki, anecdotal evidence is ridiculous “OMG like my friends mom” does not mean that what is common knowledge is not true.
Lucy does this site get more idiotic day by day.. Btw schiedler, I read some things about the history of your group today.. Violent protests surely aren’t your nature?!
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 1:52 pm
John says:
Lauren said: “Sparki, anecdotal evidence is ridiculous “OMG like my friends mom” does not mean that what is common knowledge is not true.”
Lauren,
Lucy has commented on numerous posts on this blog about her abortion experience, most recently in comment #11 on this post, where she wrote:
I, for instance, have come on here and said that I have had an abortion and do not feel regret or guilt, and know that I have no reason to feel either.
Do you believe that “anecdotal evidence is ridiculous” in her case?
For the record, I see no reason to doubt Sparki’s account of easy availability of abortion in 1970, and that such availability very nearly resulted in the death of her husband.
And also for the record, I believe Lucy when she says that she feels no regret or guilt over her abortion.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
John says:
Lauren said: “Violent protests surely aren’t your nature?!”
Lauren,
We do have some experience with violent protests.
Note these paragraphs in particular:
The National Organization for Women tried in vain for 20 years to portray Joe Scheidler as the national coordinator of a vast network of violent attacks against abortion clinics.
Three trips to the Supreme Court later — I’m not aware of any other case in U. S. history to go before SCOTUS three times, the most recent being a unanimous decision in his favor — it was once and for all determined that NOW was grasping at straws.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
claiborne says:
Lauren: Thank you for your insightful and intelligent response.
Lauren and Lucy:
You add so much to the level of discourse on this site.
Your kind responses such as “blow me” do not make you appear to be defensive at all.
Your ad hominem attacks on the other posters in no way indicate that you employ that method of argument only because you are arguing an illogical, weak position.
Your general tone is not at all defensive, angry, or condescending.
You are excellent spokespersons for your point of view, and your methodology and tone will convince many of the fact that abortion is a cheerful, stress-free procedure that doesn’t ever leave one bitter, guilty, angry, or defensive.
Keep up the good work!
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
Sparki says:
Lauren,
The true story I told counter’s Lucy’s assumption that back-alley abortions with coat hangers were mandatory before 1973 if a pregnant woman wanted to kill her baby before his/her birth. Licensed doctors were providing them, and you didn’t have to be rich or famous to get one.
BTW, you’d like my husband, too.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
claiborne says:
Sparki: Of course your anecdote made a lie out of her assumption; that is, if she really holds that assumption. Most pro-abort people don’t really believe that line about ‘forcing women back to the days of back-alley abortions’, but they certainly like to use it in arguments. It’s called a smokescreen, and once you responded to it with logic, they had no further posts on the matter, did they? Well, good for you dear for calling her silly bluff and helping to expose her lack of logic. We can’t really blame them, though, since they’re acting out of a desperate need to defend their prior bad acts by wrapping them in a cloak of hig-sounding moral platitudes. Many pro-aborts resort to that; it’s really very common. Join me in praying for them.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
claiborne says:
n.b.
next to last line of my previous post obviously should read “…high-sounding moral platitudes.” , not “hig-sounding”.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
joe says:
Lucy
You wrote, “have had an abortion and do not feel regret or guilt, and know that I have no reason to feel either. ”
I was listening to Relevant Radio the other day and they were going to have some expert on discussing sociopathy. It was described by the moderator (Sheila Liaugminas) as a condition where the person can’t feel guilt or shame. She stated that one in twenty four people suffer from this malady. Several years ago, I remember it was suggested that Scott Petersen had this problem because of how he behaved after murdering his wife and baby, then to see how incredibly collected he looked every time there was a camera on him.
You have always seemed so adamant about not feeling guilty. On other posts you got pretty indignant with the fact that no one believed you when you said you didn’t feel guilty. Because of this I figured I would entertain that possibility and found that sociopathy would be a possible explanation.
What do you think? Have you ever done anything at all that made you feel guilty?
Joe
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 9:20 pm
Lauren, lauren, lauren says:
“Abortions are still dangerous. They still lead to sterility, to miscarriage, prematurity, and low birth weight in subsequent pregnancies. Certainly they are not safe for the child.”
Whoa, whoa, whoa.. Wait a minute. Please, for the love of God back this up. Let me in one phrase: the risk of death is 11 times more likely in childbirth than in abortion.
SHocking distortions!
http://plannedparenthood.com/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/fact-abortion-silent-scream.xml
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
Lauren, lauren, lauren says:
I’ll be praying for you Claiborne. God gave you a brian. She expects you to use it.
John, while I wouldn’t take what Lucy said at its face value to be representative of the population (although most studies prove that it is), I wanted to make the point that I’m not gonna listen to some fool say “well, my friend yada yada” and therefore this MUST be true for all or most, when it is factually not the case. It’s all about context in this scenario.
Claiborne again, my job is not to please you. I dont have any overarching moral obligation to be nice to you. You come on here swinging with “pro-abortion” and murderer and such talk,and you’re going to tell me my semi-sarcastic “blow me” is offensive? please.
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
Lauren, lauren, lauren says:
Taking a break from the site for a bit because it’s stressng me out. I have too much on my plate right now for such emotional turmoil. Wish me luck this weekend on the Out of the Darkness Walk. Pray to end suicide.
http://www.theovernight.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=extranet.personalpage&confirmid=10005839
Comment posted August 10th, 2006 at 10:51 pm
John says:
Lauren said: “Wish me luck this weekend on the Out of the Darkness Walk. Pray to end suicide.”
Will surely do.
Godspeed, Lauren.
Comment posted August 11th, 2006 at 8:06 am
joe says:
“Wish me luck this weekend on the Out of the Darkness Walk. ”
I sponsored someone on this walk.
“Pray to end suicide.”
Finally!!! Something we can agree on!
Joe
Comment posted August 11th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Lucy says:
Claiborne,
I’m sorry, I don’t recall ever having said or written the phrase, ‘blow me’ Nor do I actually recall doing any attacking of anyone on here. I do recall having been attacked, and addressing having been attacked. I recall questioning what has been introduced and called logic. However, I’m afraid that I am personally not actually responsible for any of the actions that you have accused me of.
I also feel no guilt and no shame. None, not the slightest little drop. I am not spending too much time defending the clinic that I was in. In fact, I am probably not spending enough. I think that perhaps there has been too much time spent attacking clinics by people who have more than likely never set foot inside of one.
I’m still looking for the place where you have offered more to this than attempts at character assanations that have nothing to do with what is actually going on.
I am sorry that I did not respond sooner, as this seems to have given you a false sense of victory. Some of us have jobs that we must attend to. I actually do believe that depriving women of rights to their bodies will thrust women directly back into the dark ages. I think that it is a cruelty to tell a woman that she may not have rights to her body. A woman who has an abortion does so with full knowledge of the risks involved. She judges the risks to be less than the benefits. A woman who does not think before she acts cannot be reasonably used to penalize women who do. It is an attempt at utilizing emotional outcries over reason.
People who think that womens rights are some kind of joke are really missing a huge point of the picture. To deprive women of rights to their bodies is to deprive them of their humanity. It is to degrade all of civilization. If you think that this is inaccurate please feel free to compare the conditions of cultures where women have rights and where women do not. It is not simply the women who are effected when women are at a loss to control what does and does not happen to their bodies.
I am pro abortion actually. I found a woman online who made me realize that embracing the term pro abort is probably a pretty good idea. Afterall, it doesn’t mean that I am promoting that all women should have abortions. I am however in favor of the ability of women who do need the service to be able to acquire it as safely as possible, legally. I have no opposition to women recieving abortions. I think that it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to prevent a life from beginning, and is a completely different topic then ending a life that has already begun. Yet, this understanding requires a higher respect for life than is held by anti abortionists. Those of us who are actually Pro-Life, the Pro Aborts as you call us, understand that life is something to be used, and cherished. We understand that we are each individuals and each feel our own pain, and our own comforts. We know that it is immoral for you to attempt to determine what others think.
Yes, that is correct, the proper owners of the title Pro-Life are the ones you call the Pro-Aborts. But, it requires a greater value to be placed on life. People who cannot determine the difference between a woman and a blastocyst are not who I am going to turn to make life altering decisions for me if you don’t mine.
Now, Claiborne, I think that I am about finished addressing your Snide accusations and misinformed commentaries. I made no discoveries of any intelligent contributions that you made, and if you made something other than a snide comment on here, and actually made a point, I missed it.
Comment posted August 12th, 2006 at 2:04 am
Lucy says:
Joe,
Ah, more insults. That’s good. I am waiting for you to have something else to offer, yet still, nothing comes. You only just learned about Sociopaths? That’s a pretty basic Psych 101 kind of deal, it’s usually covered in High School Psych classes, and you it would be next to impossible to get out of college without taking a Psychology class.
What I have done that I feel guilty about is not your concern. I am not going to offer you anything further to attack. There are also diagnoses for people who seek out information on others for the pure purpose of tormenting them with the information. Perhaps that will be covered next week, and you can come back and explain what you are. Particularly since you never respond with civility. You actually seem to ask these questions for no purpose other than to try to harm people.
Of course I want people to understand that I don’t feel guilt for having an abortion. I understand that you do not feel that women are entitled to lives that do not include being pregnant, however, I happen to have a different opinion. I am not actually an incubator. There is a difference between what is in you when you are a pregnant and a child. One day when you are pregnant you might actually understand what that means. There are many who once they become pregnant; shed the indoctrination and come to understand what I mean.
Comment posted August 12th, 2006 at 2:11 am
Lucy says:
Lauren,
Good luck on your weekend. I would be very interested to hear how it went. I have a very close friend who has often spoke of suicide and attempted on a few occasions, fortunately for me, to no avail. Still, if there is something that you learn that might help them I would be very appreciative of the information.
Oh, and yes, in many instances the insults seem to be coming faster. Now the attacks seem to be fabricated accusations. There are a couple that are still worth attempting to communicate with. My primary frustration with Mary Kay at this point is that I actually do think that she could understand and is willing to try. I simply feel that I am at a loss to find the right words. I think that I am going to ignore the insults and the ignorant questions and merely focus on speaking to those who are civilized.
While I agree with John on nothing, he does at very least seem to rank amongst those capable of civilized conversation.
I still don’t quite know about Pansy.
To be honest, my favorite was Sidney. Despite our difference of opinions regarding abortion, I could not help but feel that she was actually only interested in the well being of women, and trying to achieve that in the best way she had found. Not that I condone Kantian behavior. Still, I hope that she is doing okay.
Comment posted August 12th, 2006 at 2:19 am
Lucy says:
Sparki,
Who said anything about mandatory. They were prevelant. This is a well known fact. Accounted for by countless tales of women from the time. I also know of stories of doctors who put their careers, and possibly lives on the line, to do what they believed to be right. To help women. The whole thing was akin to the underground railroad.
While that’s a nice story, I’m afraid I don’t understand the point. I grant you that would have made a far better story to print in this or any other magazine. I’m glad the teen had the courage to stand up to her mother. It works both ways though. Sometimes women stand up to people in order to obtain an abortion as well.
I don’t know why people automatically assume that those of us who advocate choice are under the impression that abortion is the only choice that can be made. It isn’t so. The point is that the woman who is pregnant should be making the decision. Therefore, women who choose to have the child are choosing. Thereofore, utilizing the right to choose. The same goes for using adoption as an option. Abstaining, not abstaining. What birth control. No birth control.
I don’t know the young woman in your story, but I am proud of her for her strength and her courage. I’m sure her son is a fine young man. Though I do wish he would fight for the right of women to determine what is best for themselves instead. It is the standing up to opposition; and using her own head, and following her judgement that drives me to consider her a strong young woman deserving of my respect. Not the choice she made. I would feel the same respect regardless of the difficult choice.
Comment posted August 12th, 2006 at 2:29 am
Young Christian Woman says:
Am I the only one who noticed how ironic it was that Lauren, who screams “Bias!” whenever a site with “Life” in the name is mentioned, uses Planned Parenthood to support her arguments?
Lucy opined:
“There is a difference between what is in you when you are a pregnant and a child. One day when you are pregnant you might actually understand what that means. There are many who once they become pregnant; shed the indoctrination and come to understand what I mean.”
Wow, Lucy. You accuse us of denying your experience, but you have just discounted the experience of most of the women on this site (all except you and Lauren). Indoctrination can’t create love. That’s bull. I love my children because they are my children, precious in the sight of God, given to me by God, beloved by God. I love my children because I am their mother, and my husband loves our children because he is their father. On the contrary to your uninformed statement, being pregnant made me realize how insensitive it is to say that unborn children are children only because they look like children and how unrealistic it is when people say that women do not know that they are pregnant until very late in the pregnancy, or until birth.
The phenomenon you are referring to sounds much more like rationalizing away one’s previous convictions so that one can take an act that one knows to be immoral.
Comment posted August 12th, 2006 at 8:21 am
joe says:
Lucy,
“There is a difference between what is in you when you are a pregnant and a child”
What if our Supreme Court said that you have a constitutional right to kill your baby up to one year old? Would you believe there is a difference then? I don’t think you would, you would just change your tune and say something nonsensical like, “Oh… Actually a 1 year old baby and a baby that is still in the womb are sooo alike, why shouldn’t it be okay to kill that baby too!”
“There are many who once they become pregnant; shed the indoctrination and come to understand what I mean.”
We all start off pro-life Lucy. The indoctrination process is from your side alone and happens much later. I can prove this too… If you stuck a needle into the womb of a pregnant woman and started to jab the baby with it, I guarantee you the baby would move away from the needle. That would make this unborn baby pro-life, wouldn’t it? The unborn baby is pro-life because she/he is trying to protect itself from being killed.
Comment posted August 12th, 2006 at 7:50 pm
Mamaof6 says:
Many women who were victims of abortion are now pro-life. In fact, every woman whom I know who had one, regrets it now, and/or felt forced into it at the time (they were all 16-20 years old at the time). Legal abortion is just an evil in our society. It’s so very sad that our children are growing up in a world where human life is of so little value.
Comment posted August 12th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
Lauren says:
“The unborn baby is pro-life because she/he is trying to protect itself from being killed. ‘
What?!
Comment posted August 14th, 2006 at 8:44 am
Lauren says:
mama of 6, 1 in 4 women will have an abortion by the time they reach the age of 40. I know very few women who talk about their abortions with anyone that is pro-life for the same reasons they dont want to talk to them about much of anything. There’s always an agenda and there’s always judgement. What if one of your friends said they didn’t regret it, would you condemn them?
Comment posted August 14th, 2006 at 8:46 am
Pansy Moss says:
If you stuck a needle into the womb of a pregnant woman and started to jab the baby with it, I guarantee you the baby would move away from the needle. That would make this unborn baby pro-life, wouldn’t it? The unborn baby is pro-life because she/he is trying to protect itself from being killed.
Joe,
When I was pregnant with my second baby. my AFP tests results came out funny, so they recommended an amniocentesis. At the time, I mistakenly thought it was that if something was wrong, to correct it if possible, or prepare us.
The doctor told me (i was 18 weeks) that if I found out “bad news”, it was not too late to do something, which totally offended me. But that is not the pertinent part.
They instert the needle guided by u/s. When they inserted the needle, my baby tried to grab at it. The doctor (who told me about “bad news” and not “being too late”) made a quick adjustment to the needle (which hurt) and said “they do that sometimes”.
Comment posted August 14th, 2006 at 1:47 pm
lauren says:
God amniocenticis(sp?!) look like they hurt like hell. I never let the doctors show me their needles because then i start to hyperventilate. what a loser i am.. Yikes hope i never have to get one of those!
Hey what do ya’ll think of IUDs? Not the ones from the 70s, the ones now? I keep calling it an IED, which means I’ve been watching way too much news.. No way I’m putting an improvised explosive device anywhere near my vagina.
Comment posted August 14th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
rosie says:
Pansy,
Hmm… that would imply that a baby in the womb can actually think. Go figure!
Comment posted August 14th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
joe says:
Lauren writes, “What?!”
Yes… Unborn babies are pro-life. I also imagine little kids are pro-life too… Their indoctrination into being pro-aborts happens much later.
I think it would be fun to explain to a bunch of four year olds what pregnancy is and then flat out ask them if it would be wrong to kill the unborn baby inside the mom. I’ll bet a thousand dollars that twenty-three out of twenty-four of those four year olds would think abortion is wrong.
Any takers on that bet? Lucy? Lauren?
Joe
Comment posted August 14th, 2006 at 7:57 pm
mary kay says:
Lauren doesn’t gamble anymore, remember. Besides she’d lose.
mk
Comment posted August 14th, 2006 at 8:39 pm
Lauren, lauren, lauren says:
Wow, well Mary Kay has certainly entered the fold into low blow comments. This coming from miss maturity herself. If you think you’re so above board Mk, why don’t you conduct yourself that way? Whatever, I’m not going to address that and I’m no t surprised by your lack of sensitivity. I’m over it!
As for the bets, I don’t really involve children in adult topics. I thought we were the ones forcing sex issues on children?
http://www.here-now.org/shows/2006/07/20060728.asp
If you want to hear me listen to the show. That is, if you like gambling topics. Sigh. The assaults never end.
Comment posted August 14th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Matt C. Abbott says:
I must say: Posters such as Lucy and Lauren do make for an “entertaining” read.
Keep up the great work, GFL!
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 1:58 am
Ceecee says:
I used to be pro-choice, many years ago. NO MORE. The more I learned about fetuses and how they grow and how they live, the more impossible it became to justfy killing them for any reason, even to solve the problems of their mothers. I am now very strongly pro-life (that means anti-abortion, in case the pro-aborts try to muddy the waters).
Lucy is wrong when she says that there is a difference between what’s in your womb when you are pregnant and a child. When you are pregnant, that is child in your womb. As for “realizing” otherwise when you become pregnant, I have never been pregnant (that I know of), but I have had a false alarm pregnancy scare, (which for a short time anyway, might as well have been the same thing).
Beleive me comtemplating what might be in my womb did not make me “realize” Lucy’s statement as correct. I was very cautious who I talked to about the situation. Anyone who I thought would have wanted me to have an abortion was NOT confided in. The person who would have been the father if I had been pregnant and his family would have been the last to know. His sister had two abortions and his mother had three. I knew what he and his family would have wanted and I was planning to leave town and not tell them I was pregnant until after the baby was born.
But then my pregnancy test came back negative and my periods started aga
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 3:24 am
mary kay says:
Lauren,
#
Lauren, lauren, lauren says:
“Wow, well Mary Kay has certainly entered the fold into low blow comments.”
Well, after all Lauren, I was feeling REALLY emotional about this topic and according to you that gives me the right to hit below the belt…Besides, I wanted to know what it felt like to be Lauren and say whatever I wanted no matter how rude or whose feelings I hurt…I must say, I didn’t like the feeling at all. It made me feel dirty and cheap. So that was my stab at being nasty…sorry. It WAS a cheap shot. You know that about the only thing I still respect you for is your willingness to fight your addiction. I shouldn’t have hit you there. It won’t happen again.
MK
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 5:46 am
mary kay says:
#
Matt C. Abbott says:
I must say: Posters such as Lucy and Lauren do make for an “entertaining” read.
Keep up the great work, GFL!
Except I honestly think that Lucy doesn’t stoop to such levels as Lauren. I think Lucy is honestly trying to communicate something.
As for Lauren, well, yeah, it is very entertaining. But like the three stooges it gets tiresome after awhile…
MK
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 5:52 am
Young Christian Woman says:
Ceecee:
Sometimes your body can tell you more than a pregnancy test can, especially very early. I lost two babies at two weeks, and I know that I was pregnant. There was a lot more blood and clotting with the miscarriages, and with the first there were very bad cramps too. I also had some pregnancy syndromes during those two weeks–tenderness, increased temperature.
It’s interesting how our language reveals our culture; people use the term “pregnancy scare” but there is no similar positive term for when you think you are pregnant but turn out not to be….
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 6:19 am
mary kay says:
Ceecee,
You say you used to be pro-choice until you realized what was really inside you…What started the change? Something you saw in school? On TV? A Book?
I’m curious because it would be helpful to know what worked for you.
What did you do to change your lifestyle (if anything). I mean, what to you do differently now to avoid the same situation. Sorry if I’m being insensitive. I just think it would be so helpful for other people to understand a change of heart, you know?
I can’t tell you how happy I am that your eyes were opened and you now “see” the truth. Bless you. And bless you for speaking up.
MK
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 6:53 am
mary kay says:
YWC,
I think that until women connect the dots between sex and pregnancy, we’ll never move forward.
If you are willing to have sex, then you have already made your “choice”. Doing the responsible thing and accepting the consequences and responsibility of ones actions would go a long way in ending abortion. Having your cake and eating it too
is all well and good. Unless of course there is a human life at stake.
When did we become a society of “I want and I want it with no consequences?” How did we become so selfish and self serving?
God help the next generation. Who will they look up to? Those who think like Lauren are having a tremendous effect on our future. It’s actually scary sometimes.
We should pray as a group on here sometime. Three or more and He is there. You know?
MK
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 6:59 am
Lauren, lauren, lauren says:
Oh yes, I’m such a detriment to my generation Mary Kay, lol. You’re doing Jesus’s work, and me and Lucy, well Satan’s lol. I was thinking today about how you all call people pro-aborts. Lucy made some awesome points about how she doesn’t mind it, and now neither do I. Call me what you want, if it makes it easier to defend your side.
What I was really thinking about is how it is a tactic to dehumanize the opposition. You want to pick people apart until they’re no longer real, thinking individuals. Instead of understand the complexities about what it means to be pro-choice, you want to use a backwards euphemism(is there a bad emphasis for the linguistic equivalent for euphemism? if there is i can’t think of it). Keep saying it though, it really shows a lack of depth.
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 8:00 am
mary kay says:
Lauren,
I believe you are looking for the term “doublespeak”.
However, a euphemism for advocates of choice would be “advocates of choice”. We are doing exactly the opposite of using euphemisms and rather than softening an ugly truth we are calling a spade a spade. Pro-abortion is definitely a harsher term than pro-choice so I believe it is your side that is using euphemisms.
You also like to use the euphemism “rights” when what you really mean is “whatever is best for me no matter who else it hurts.”
Or how about “fetus” instead of “baby.”
Or “safe sex” instead of “irresponsible sexual behavior outside of marriage”.
Or “personal freedom” instead of “oppression of the unborn.”
Or “No one can tell me what to do with MY body” instead of “I have the right to tell the unborn what to do with theirs.”
No methinks it is your side, not ours, that is constantly replacing the truth with words that are meant to mislead…and justify, and expunge culpablility.
But, nice try.
MK
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 8:15 am
mary kay says:
Lauren,
Lauren says:
“You want to pick people apart until they’re no longer real, thinking individuals.”
Funny choice of words don’t you think, considering you just described a first trimester abortion…
Lauren says:
“Instead of understand the complexities about what it means to be pro-choice, ”
Complexities? You fool around. You end up pregnant. You take the easier way out. You sacrifice nothing of yourself for the sake of another. You make a decision to end someones life. Then you try to make it sound as if what you did was entirely reasonable because, after all, it would have interfered with your agenda.
Sounds pretty simple to me.
MK
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 8:24 am
mary kay says:
Lauren says:
“You’re doing Jesus’s work, and me and Lucy, well Satan’s ”
What I do, I do for Jesus, yes, but there are plenty of people out there who feel the same way but don’t believe in Jesus. They just believe in what’s right.
As for doing Satans work, yes I believe that you are. You don’t have to believe in Satan to work for Satan. Every evil is a work done for his side. Every good is a work done for God. Whether you are aware of it or accept it is irrelevant.
Every baby that is aborted is power to the dark side. He really doesn’t need you to acknowledge him. I think he does quite well without Lauren’s blessing. One of his greatest weapons is blinding you to the fact that he exists and that you are furthering his cause.
But, whatever…
MK
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 8:36 am
Noelle says:
First of all, my heart goes out to Christy who’s story started this “battle” back and forth. Christy, you are brave for speaking out so don’t let anyone tell you differently. Also, do not let anyone make you feel guilty for not speaking up before the abortion, you were in a scary place in your life and you had no support for keeping your baby. Please know that the mercy & grace of Jesus will get us through anything if we rely on Him.
Now, I really wish we could change Lucy & Lauren’s heart by battling back and forth but unfortunately we cannot; however, being face to face with Truth can and for that we must pray. Mary Kay you hit the nail on the head when you posted the following,
“I think that until women connect the dots between sex and pregnancy, we’ll never move forward.
If you are willing to have sex, then you have already made your “choice”. Doing the responsible thing and accepting the consequences and responsibility of ones actions would go a long way in ending abortion. Having your cake and eating it too
is all well and good. Unless of course there is a human life at stake.”
We have a generation growing up now that for the large majority do not believe in absolute truths, what is morally right and what is morally wrong. Satan is playing “head games” with this generation by blinding them to truth and making them see the lie as the truth. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 “If the Good News we preach is veiled from anyone, it is a sign that they are perishing. Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don’t understand the message we preach about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.” NIV
Lauren & Lucy, the fact is that Jesus loves you and everyone else out there that is blinded right now to Truth. In fact, He loved you so much He died a brutal death on a Cross, rose again, sits at the right hand of God the Father and instructs those who love Him (Christians…’and because we love Him, we love you’…)to speak the gospel of Truth (Jesus Christ) so that you may be saved.
I am not going to argue the sanctity of human life from beginning to end because the Word of God does that for me and I will always stand on truth for it is built on a firm foundation. I will pray though that your eyes will be opened to the truth and your hearts softened. I do not judge or condemn you for your feelings and actions but I do pray that you will allow Jesus to speak to your hearts.
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 10:08 am
Lauren, lauren, lauren says:
Mary Kay, do you understand how extreme your words are? You just told me that I am doing Satan’s work? Are you really that out of touch you’d say something like that?
Oh my god, why the hell do I care what your morals are about marriage? I don’t hold those. I think it is immoral to completely demoralize at least 50% of the population, call women who make difficult choices nazis or murderers…. Um hello humility!
I’ve read the Bible, and not once, not once have I see the word abortion. This is the only issue you all care about.. There are so many injustices in this world and all you want to do is limit a woman’s right to control her body. I don’t think that is a euphemism. Woman gets pregnant, she choose whether to carry that pregnancy or zygote ro fetus or whatever u call it to term. What is so difficult about that?
Let me ask you something, why do you think so many people spit, swear, sometimems even swing punches at you guys when you’re out… dont give me some lame excuse that they want to cover the truth about abortion.. what motives do they have? what reaction do you think they’re having?
You’ve said a lot on here that I am mean and kind of a jerk on here.. well why do you think that is honestly? Please dont give me a lame answer.
Comment posted August 15th, 2006 at 10:23 am
C says:
there was a LOT more to the story than that.
they told me it had to be “squished” into two pages.
yes – i am “that girl…” i was directed to this site by a friend. thank you to those that have *supported* me through this.
Lauren – please dont post on a site you dont belong to.
Comment posted August 31st, 2006 at 3:23 pm
C says:
and for the record – my “counseling” consisted of presenting a falsely signed 24-hour piece of paper, and an “are you ready now?” from the “counselor”
nice try, though.
Comment posted August 31st, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Tiffany says:
Very happy you found this C. I was hoping you may be able to…not quite enlighten…but correct the absurd assumptions going on here. Because no one can know but you. Please remember that.
Comment posted August 31st, 2006 at 10:20 pm
C says:
lauren – pro-choice work IS satan’s work, it is. and it IS murder – maybe God didnt say abortion outright, but since we’re asking questions – how many times in the bible does it say “thou shalt not kill?”
many.
Comment posted September 4th, 2006 at 7:36 pm