Some Things Just Don’t Make Any Sense
— Posted by John (November 28, 2006 at 3:06 pm)
i‧ro‧ny [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-] –noun, plural -nies.
Definition: an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.
As in:
Chicago Christmas Festival Nixes ‘Nativity Story’ Ads Over Fears of Offending Non-Christians
CHICAGO- A public Christmas festival is no place for the Christmas story, the city says. Officials have asked organizers of a downtown Christmas festival, the German Christkindlmarket, to reconsider using a movie studio as a sponsor because it is worried ads for its film “The Nativity Story” might offend non-Christians. [source]
Such is life in the dominion of King Richard the Younger.
Around this time of year several years ago, my boss, Joe Scheidler, got a phone call from a friend who urged him to come downtown right away, as city employees were acting on orders to remove the figures from the Nativity scene that had recently been set up in Daley Plaza. (City Hall had apparently grown nervous that its previous decision to allow a Nativity scene in the public square would prompt a lawsuit, so the decision was made to pull the plug.)
Scheidler arrived to find the dismantling of the Nativity scene already very much in progress, with pieces being thrown into dumpsters. Not about to stand by idly while the figures of the Holy Family suffered the same fate, he and several others stepped forward. He held an angel, someone else held the baby Jesus, someone else the Virgin Mary, etc.
The city workers weren’t about to wrestle the figures away from anyone, so they went on their merry way.
Scheidler and others remained in the plaza, holding the figures. They weren’t about to leave. There they remained for several hours, long into the evening.
Word quickly spread about the City Hall ordered raid on the Nativity scene, and concerned Christians began to arrive at the plaza to spell those who, by that time, were not a little cold and tired.
A handful of folks held the figures for several more hours, then they were replaced by the next “shift.” The figures were held throughout the night, and well into the afternoon of the next day.
By that time, an ambitious young pro-life attorney had managed to petition City Hall to allow the Nativity scene to be re-erected.
And so it was.
An odd saga, to be sure. But that’s life in Chicago.
***UPDATE, 11/29, 9:01AM: I had a hunch that John Kass would write about this story in his Tribune column today.
Sure enough, he did: “And lo, City Hall ordered the heralds to cry the mayoral decree from the top of every two-flat and skyscraper in his domain…”
Read the whole thing.
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mary kay says:
Don’t these people who fight Christianity so hard have some homework to do? Or maybe clean their rooms? Surely, they have too much time on their hands if chasing around the country trying to eradicate anything that has to do with Jesus, is the pastime of their choice. All you can do is shake your head in wonder…
I can just hear Jesus now, when these people meet Him face to face…”Lucy, you got sone splainin’ to do”…
The girl I stand with at the clinic was telling me how someone came up to her the other day, furious about the 5 foot tall sign we had outside the clinic of an aborted baby. He said it was false advertising. 10 week old fetuses weren’t that big. Well let’s hope not…My friend told him that cheeseburgers advertised on the side of bus weren’t that big either. But we assumed people were smart enough to know that cheeseburgers are not 4 feet wide and 10 week old fetuses were not 3 feet tall…
People are just silly. I mean honestly, would anybody complain if a symbol of chanukah was in a public place, or something to celebrate Ramadan? Diwali lights for the Hindu festival? I wouldn’t. I would actually be touched people were willing to share their most private beliefs. I’m glad to celebrate with them outside the “circle”. No I don’t believe what they believe, but how will we ever break down the walls if we don’t first understand the differences?
Someone just sent me an e-mail with things found on bathroom walls…I love this one: ” If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.” What will Chicago do when there is no Daley in office?
MK
Comment posted November 28th, 2006 at 4:46 pm
Rosie says:
“I mean honestly, would anybody complain if a symbol of chanukah was in a public place, or something to celebrate Ramadan? Diwali lights for the Hindu festival”
Nope! only if it is for Christmas!
Comment posted November 28th, 2006 at 5:31 pm
Pansy Moss says:
I mean honestly, would anybody complain if a symbol of chanukah was in a public place, or something to celebrate Ramadan? Diwali lights for the Hindu festival? I wouldn’t. I would actually be touched people were willing to share their most private beliefs. I’m glad to celebrate with them outside the “circle”. No I don’t believe what they believe, but how will we ever break down the walls if we don’t first understand the differences?
I totally agree. I lived in a country where Diwali was the primary holiday celebrated at this time of year, and I never found Diwali decorations insulting at all. I am never insulted by my cousins wishing me Happy Hanukah. I am more insulted by “Seasons Greetings” because it is so void of any true emotion or meaning. I always wish people Merry Christmas not because I am trying to push my religion on them, but because I am sharing my joy with them. I hope they respect me to do the same.
Comment posted November 28th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
Sunnyday says:
Still having a hard time coming to terms with such things actually happening over there. If this EVER happens in my country, it probably won’t until 10, 20 years from now. Christmas carols start playing here in September! And Christmas is the main and most important occasion for familes to gather and bond. And every home has a Belen (the Nativity scene), while the poorest communities put up one for the whole community.
Comment posted November 28th, 2006 at 6:41 pm
lauren says:
Are you guys aware of the separation of church and state? I mean that hasn’t even come up once! Why should public dollars fund a very much religious scene!? It shouldn’t! I dont want my tax dollars paying for it! It’s ridiculous!!! I have no problem if you want to go stand in the public place and preach to your heart’s desire, but please dont make my money fund your religion!!!!!!
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 12:51 pm
lauren says:
And I would be equally offended if my tax dollars were paying for any non-Christian religion either! You have the right to put it on your front lawn or in front of your church, or even talk about it in Daley plaza or put on a play as long as it is not funded by the state, I’m great with it!
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Rosie says:
There’s lots of things I don’t want my tax dollars to pay for either.
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
Michael says:
Lauren,
Where in the story does it say that the city pays for Christkindlmarket? It seems that private organizers who have paid the city are being told to take these things down.
Maybe you’re relating to the Joe Scheidler anecdote underneath. But the new story has nothing to do with the so-called “separation of church and state.”
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Pansy Moss says:
Are you guys aware of the separation of church and state?
Yes, I have. The Constitution states:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
This was enacted not to force religion out of the lives of Americans, but to keep the government out of religious practices, such as were happening in England (forcing people to become Anglican for example). What you are describing is forcing Americans to become atheist, which in a way by your definition is still the state forcing a belief system on people that they do not choose for themselves.
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Mike says:
It’s funny how secular society sometimes wants to get rid of God and Christmas unless they can make a buck off it.
Just wait until Christmas is over and you will see every retailer in the nation advertising their after-CHRISTmas sale.
Mike
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Mike says:
Here is a thread I am sure everyone will get a kick out of reading…
Will You Shop At Stores Which Do Not Say “Merry Christmas”?
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=87365
Mike
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
Mike says:
Here is one of the posts from that thread…
The birth of Christ is the reason everyone is given the day off on December 25th!
Right now many stores are using “Seasons Greetings” and “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas”. It’s sure funny how the stores use “Seasons Greetings” and “Happy Holidays” before Christmas and then the day after Christmas these same stores advertise as our “After CHRISTMAS Sale”. Seems to me the stores only use the word “Christmas” when they want to make a buck. Why do Catholics (Christians) put up with this? Has not consumerism/materialism gone too far?
I also find it funny how stores advertise the “Christmas Tree” now as the “Holiday Tree”. I am going to walk up to the salespeople at these stores and ask them where I can buy a “Labor Day Tree”.
For those stores which use the words “Seasons Greetings”. Why not use those same words for the entire year? The year goes by and brings us different seasons so I think the stores which use “Seasons Greetings” should just keep up these signs all year round.
Last, does anyone know where I can find the “Holiday Bunny” and “Holiday Eggs” at Easter time. It’s time Catholics and Christians begin to stand up for Christ in “CHRISTMAS”!!
Mike
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Pansy Moss says:
The Curt Jester posted a piece written by William Donohue in the NY Times op-ed page:
Celebrate Christmas; Celebrate Diversity
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
Mike says:
William Donohue of the Catholic League is one of my favorite individuals. You can check out what he is doing on a daily basis here…
http://www.catholicleague.org/newsreleases.htm
Mike
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 5:18 pm
Rosie says:
Sears has “Merry Christmas” on their doors and they are also doing this…
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl-sears-reservists.htm
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
lauren says:
“so-called separation” LMAO! SERIOUSLY READ A FREAKING BOOK MAN! god nothing makes me more mad than WILLFUL ignorance.
Hmmm where is the separation of church and state (fumbling oh crap i cant find it, oh wait here it is).. welll gollllllllllly it’s in the first amendment, for an idea so far fetched, my lord, I cannot believe it is in the actual FIRST amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Read it. Better yet, take a constitutional law course, and your professor, I guarantee you will tell you the same. The judges on the bench that disagree with this, dont disagree in theory (although they wont tell you that) disagree beacuse it is not advantageous to them to uphold separation. Then there are people who speak of “intent” That the founding fathers didn’t intend for their to be separation… riiiight….
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.”
CRAP! WHO SAID THAT?!?! SOME LIBERAL PUNDIT.. TRY THOMAS JEFFERSON.. ONE OF THE MAIN FOUNDERS OF THE CONSTITUTION.
As if that werent enough.. try this puppy on for size..
“The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State.”
OK, maybe this one isnt as good as the Thomas Jefferson one, but oh wait it is, It’s written by the “FATHER OF THE CONSTITUTION” James Madison.
Oh wait just to make this complete and total domination of your argument that much sweeter let me just say… Read two things: Article V of the constitution and ONE of many separation supreme court cases, “Lemon v. Kurtzman”.
Grrrr… nothing makes me more angry after I’ve sat through two semesters of Conlaw, studied it at Princeton and Georgetown and hear someone say “so-called” separation.
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
lauren says:
“What you are describing is forcing Americans to become atheist, which in a way by your definition is still the state forcing a belief system on people that they do not choose for themselves. ”
Back that statement up please. I’m not going to argue with you because to me it’s futile, but I’d like you to provide a reasonable argument if possible as to how separation of church and state makes you society atheistic.
Also, under your set of rules, I suppose we can start funding Wiccan, Muslim, Hindu, and Jewish celebrations. Heck, we can even fund atheist celebrations. I would say we’d fund my preferred agnostic celebration, but let’s be honest, we agnostics can never make a committment
aww little joke, laugh. 
Now, Pansy, I know you wont be a fan of that would you?
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Pansy Moss says:
LMAO! SERIOUSLY READ A FREAKING BOOK MAN! god nothing makes me more mad than WILLFUL ignorance.
Mighty funny, your comment makes me think the same thing of you
starting with a Thesaurus so you can learn a new set of profanity-free adjectives and arguments besides “LMAO”.Shouldn’t you be off raiding Whoville?
I actually do not see anywhere in your argument support for the notion that public displays of Christmas are wrong. It is not in fact a law people are asking for. Do you really believe it is a “right of conscience” to force people to tear down their creches? It seems more to me pushing people around to bend to youragnostic beliefs. I don’t think that is what Thomas Jefferson had in mind.
No where in the article did it say that the creche was taxpayer funded.
Also, under your set of rules,
Where did I say my feelings of fondness for people sharing their religion with me was a “set of rules”?
but let’s be honest, we agnostics can never make a committment
aww little joke, laugh. 
Now, Pansy, I know you wont be a fan of that would you?
You mean your odd sense of humor? Yes you are right, don’t quit your day job for stand up. To get that joke, one would have to have preknowledge of some obscure stereotype you agnostics must have about yourselves regarding not making commitments. I don’t know what that stereotype is however. The agnostics I know never made me privy to it.
BTW, you would not know what I would be a fan of because 1. you never met and 2. even what you read in my replies never responds to what I write, but how it comes back to you and your therapy.
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
Mike says:
I was just listening to the Drew Mariani Show and they stated the City of Chicago has banned advertising for the movie “The Nativity”. If you would like to complain, please call the mayors office. This is just unbelievable!
Mike
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
Mike says:
John thanks for posting this thread. Here is more information on it…
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53144
Human Life International also has information on this but I cannot get into their website.
Mike
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 6:34 pm
Mike says:
For more information on this story see the American Center for Law & Justice website…
http://aclj.org/
Mike
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
mary kay says:
And all of these non-christian people would be at the Christmas Festival for what reason?
Do you think we need to stop selling Weiss beer and brats at Oktoberfest because it might offend the French and Irish?
MK
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
lauren says:
Whoa pansy, your name applies more than ever!
“I actually do not see anywhere in your argument support for the notion that public displays of Christmas are wrong”
Did I ever say that public displays of Christmas are wrong? I said that displays on government-owned property with government tax dollars is wrong! There’s a few lovely nativity scenes I’ve driven past here in Orland. They happen to be in people’s front yards and in churches. Fantastic. That’s where they belong! Why is it that they belong on property that belongs not only to you, but to Muslims, agnostics, atheists, and even Christians that don’t want it there! Most of my great friends are Christians and also separationists! Just because you are Christian doesn’t mean that you wish to enforce your views on others. That’s something that’s specific to the right-wing of the Christian community. If you dont like the way that something is going in others lives, well heck, just force it on them! Legislate it, bombard it, push it on others, and to that I say, GET A LIFE!!!
“Do you really believe it is a “right of conscience” to force people to tear down their creches?”
I haven’t a clue what a creche(s) is? Help.
“It seems more to me pushing people around to bend to youragnostic beliefs.”
Are you telling me that because you walk up to a government building to get perhaps a driver’s license and there is no nativity scene for you to peer at, you may in fact become an agnostic? That’s a problem with your faith then I’d say. I’m not pushing you around, you’re forcing me to spend my money so you can express your religious beliefs in a place that belongs to me as much as you. Do what you want, but just don’t charge me for it.
“I don’t think that is what Thomas Jefferson had in mind.”
Alright all-knowing one, what is it that Thomas Jefferson had in mind? Oh ok, well let me cite a few choice quotes…
“Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
“The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
So yeah, you can pretty much eat it! lol If you want more you can go to this site… http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm
“Where did I say my feelings of fondness for people sharing their religion with me was a “set of rules”?”
Did I ever say that? I said your set of rules, of allowing tax-payer funded religious practice or display, would allow all of those religions to receive money from you, I, and everyone on this board. Are you comfortable with that?
If you didn’t get the joke, you either are lacking intelligence or being a little brat. I’m gonna go ahead and say you’re being a brat. Be a brat. I guess that’s what happens when someone puts you in your little place now doesn’t it ms. pansy?
“BTW, you would not know what I would be a fan of because 1. you never met and 2. even what you read in my replies never responds to what I write, but how it comes back to you and your therapy.”
Oh well stomp stomp stomp.. put yourself in a little corner then and cry your little baby eyes out Pansy. You are being very testy today you know that?? Anything I’ve shared personal on this website has been few and far between and mostly it hasn’t been with you, it’s been with Mary Kay. Sometimes we bicker, but oftentimes I like talking to her. I don’t recall any specific conversations we’ve had because most likely most things you say lack meaning to me. What you said today about separation didn’t lack meaning, it lacked knowledge. It was like I said before, willfully ignorant. You think separation is such a horrible thing! If I were ultra religious I’d love it! Nothing like alienating people from your cause when you shove it down people’s throats. It loses legitimacy too especially when it comes to money. The last time I talked about therapy was a long time ago and was on one specific post. If you don’t like what I say about other things, how’s this, don’t read it. If you see my name, skip past it.
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 9:20 pm
lauren says:
Be fair mike… they didnt ban marketing of the movie, they banned the marketing of it on government property! They ban all sorts of commercial marketing on city property all the time. You are blowing this way out of proportion. This really makes me think, it’s Christmas for God’s sake and you people are searching for ways to divide people. This is not what Jesus thought Christmas was about. I can’t imagine Jesus getting pissed because someone said Happy Holidays to Him in the grocery aisle. Think of just how ridiculous this is getting.
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 9:26 pm
Mike says:
I have a few things to say…
1. Just goes to show those who preach tolerance are the most intolerant of all.
2. No Room at the Inn Irony!
3. Once again, the minority rules.
4. Political correctness is tyranny of the minority.
———-
I sent this to his Lordship mayor Daley or is it Herod?
Since the city of chicago does not see fit to allow visitors to see the advertisement for the film The Nativity – we have decided to cancel our vist there. We will tell all our friends and family about this arrogant display of hatred and censorship. Unbelievable in the land of the free that petty little bureacrats can stop a film from being shown–about the birth of the Lord.
What are you so afraid of?
name and family
Mike
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 10:15 pm
Mike says:
Here’s “The Nativity Story” Teaser Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMCqPw1aZLw
You can also see the Theatrical Trailer Video at the same location.
Mike
Comment posted November 29th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
Pansy Moss says:
Did I ever say that public displays of Christmas are wrong?
Um, yes, this whole thread is about public Christmas displays, particularly creches, is it not?
“Do you really believe it is a “right of conscience” to force people to tear down their creches?”
I haven’t a clue what a creche(s) is? Help.
Sorry, I was so blinded by your well-readness, I assumed you new such a common term.
Whoa pansy, your name applies more than ever!
The second time I asked you to elaborate about that remark-it’s a flower. I am still lost: “you are like a flower more than ever”! Sure, OK, whatever.
If you didn’t get the joke, you either are lacking intelligence or being a little brat. I’m gonna go ahead and say you’re being a brat. Be a brat.
Or maybe you’re just not clever.
I guess that’s what happens when someone puts you in your little place now doesn’t it ms. pansy?
Girl please, I have been put in my place by people who have, how can I explain this…In order for you to put me in my place, you would have to be someone with a valid argument that I respect. And you’d have to be bigger and badder. Not being called a “brat” by silly, little girls who can’t formulate an argument without cussing and laughing at people. You obviously don’t know me or where I came from. Not that I’d expect you to care, but it’s a bold statement to make backed by much ignorance.
Your prejudice statements are irritating. You sound like KKK people except you trade off the terms “black” for “religious” people. Like your assumption that I would be offended by public displays from other religions. You wouldn’t friggin’ know. You just go running with any bigoted thought that comes to mind.
Black people have a great little saying :”don’t start none, won’t be none”. You come up in here everyday trying to start stuff and people just mostly ignore you because your arguments are common.
As for personal information, I am not talking about your moments of non-insulting remarks about your life with Mary Kay or whatever. I actualy don’t read those posts to much because you spend all your time being insulting. I am talking about the fact that whenever there is a concept on this Catholic pro-life blog you don’t like, you argue something along these lines:
CRAP! i Better open my legs soon and get to reproducing! I dont want to make my kids die too soon!
Acted like girls? How exactly do you act like a girl? I personally loved gym class-in grade school-anyways. I got to run, jump, play basketball and volleyball. I’m sorry is that too boyish of me?
The blog is not called “Ways to Insult Lauren and Tell Her She is Wrong”, the blog is Generations for Life. John can blog “I like pop tarts” and you will jump down everyone’s throat with a comment about how we ignorant, unenlightened religious types eat pop tarts and are too stupid to know they are bad for us. And then end it with “oh, so what, since I don’t like pop tarts am I going to hell, since all you religious people say I’m going to hell.”
That’s what I mean about “you and your therapy”, you’re the type of person who can’t seem to not turn everything around to be about you. You back it with stereotypes you have from watching the Church Lady on Saturday Night Live reruns. Just like Elton John who says everyone should ban religion because they don’t agree with him. I don’t know if you are in therapy in real life or what you do. I am just simply talking about your responses here on the topics at hand.
( I apologise to my brothers and sisters who had to witness my “mouth”. I am testy. I have a feeling I am going into labor very, very soon, and perhaps that is good sign to just sigh and shut up. However, it is probably the only time I would have the audacity to say what I felt needed to be said. I’m done throwing pearls before swine. I just had to have the last word because I’m a brat who gets tired of being subjected to insults based on beliefs, race, class-you know, all that stuff.)
Comment posted November 30th, 2006 at 4:43 am
mary kay says:
You’re going into Labor?….I’m too excited. Isn’t that what this whole sight is about? Forget everything else people. We’re gonna have a baby!!!!! Promise, PROMISE, to tell us when, and all the details (well, not ALL the details)…Generations for LIFE. And two of our bloggers have been carrying little “fetuses” all these months.
It’s too sweet for words.
Please keep blogging up until the last minute. You’ll be gone for a week or so after the baby comes, so blog while you can. We’ll miss you. Good Luck and God Bless…
MK
Comment posted November 30th, 2006 at 6:38 am
mary kay says:
Pansy,
I was just at your website (It’s a great sight by the way) and saw the poem titled “Bishop Bo-Peep”
Can we show it here? It is so funny. And on the money. Please share it with everyone else.
Thanks.
MK
Comment posted November 30th, 2006 at 6:53 am
Lauren says:
“I have a few things to say…
1. Just goes to show those who preach tolerance are the most intolerant of all.
2. No Room at the Inn Irony!
3. Once again, the minority rules.
4. Political correctness is tyranny of the minority.”
Tolerance is not the same thing as indifference. I am not indifferent to you stealing my money and using it for your religion.
No Room at the Inn? I dont own an Inn, nor would you probably want to stay in it because Im such a sinner!
Minority rules? Since when are right-wing Catholics the majority? And this isn’t about majority/minority whatever, this has nothing to do with anything. Religion protected from governement, government protected from religion.
They aren’t stopping the film from being shown. Quit being such an imbecile Mike, you know you dont believe what you’re saying. You’re making a mountain out of a molehill. All they’re doing is saying COMMERCIAL, FOR-PROFIT ADVERTISING cannot be done on their grounds, especially if it’s not only promoting that, it’s promoting a particular religious belief on taxpayer-funded property! For Christ’s sake.
You need to look up the definition of public versus public property. No one is against public displays of Christmas. I’m against displays of ANY religion on government property. There is a huge difference between public displays and taxpayer-supported displays. HUGE—or as my real chicago accent would say—Yoooge.
I have never heard the word creche before. Sorry I’m not as smart as you pansy. Rolling eyes… Condescend all you want, you’re such a good Catholic! Man, you are such a hypocrite. Wasn’t that one of the worst layers of hell in Dante’s circles was the hypocrites? I think they’re the 8th… Welp have fun there i guess!
Did I just insinuate that I think you’re going to hell? Oops, yeah I did.
“Or maybe you’re just not clever.”
The bratiness and pouting continues. WHAAA WHAAAA
You don’t have to respect a person who puts you in your place. I don’t recall that ever being a rule. I cuss at you because you don’t deserve more intelligent language. You are the lowest of the low. The biggest hypocrite on this board. You can call out other people’s sins all day, 24 hours a day, but God forbid you people ever admit you’re own faults, working on yourself and trying to be a better person. YOU PANSY, YOU, are the worst catholic on this board. You claim to be welcoming, and forgiving and you sit here and insult and degrade. I don’t claim to have any holier-than-thou dogma, so those rules don’t apply to me. If I were sitting there pretending to be so Holy, I wouldn’t act like you and stomp my feet and insult someone who disagrees with me.. There’s been a few times on this board, where i’ve reconsidered my life and thought about things from a new perspective, but every once in awhile someone like you, someone like Quinn come on here and say the most vicious intolerant and juvenile things that I say you know what, I dont want to be a part of this group. Why am I trying to understand? Why am I struggling with people who only claim to be holy but are the devil in disguise? Hypocrites. HYPOCRITES. At least John, Annie, and Eric are nice people or at least seem to be. They seem to stand by their faith and act like the people they claim to be. MaryKay does that sometimes (sorry MK, not all the time).
Girl please, I have been put in my place by people who have, how can I explain this…In order for you to put me in my place, you would have to be someone with a valid argument that I respect.
What!? When have I ever said anything prejudiced?! Omg lady, if there’s one thing I learned from my english prof mother it was Assertion, example, elabortation. You’re missing the middle part.
BLACK PEOPLE HAVE A GREAT LITTLE SAYING!?!??!?! AND IIIIIIIIIIIIIIII am being prejudiced!? OMG! LADY!!!!!!!! I dont even know what to say to this! Not to mention you put it in slang dialect that many of my African American friends would find VERY degrading!
“CRAP! i Better open my legs soon and get to reproducing! I dont want to make my kids die too soon!”
Well isn’t that what that post insinuated!? That women who want to have kids better have them early!
“Acted like girls? How exactly do you act like a girl? I personally loved gym class-in grade school-anyways. I got to run, jump, play basketball and volleyball. I’m sorry is that too boyish of me?”
I found that insulting. You would be insulted if I said there is no difference between boys and girls. So bite me.
If John wrote about Pop Tarts, I would say that I liked them until a few months ago when I realized how bad they are for you. Special K is a much better choice for my mornings. Although the smores ones are quite irresistable don’t you agree? I love them hot! They’re like Hot pockets though you have to be careful parts of them can be hotter than you expected.
YOU ARE CHURCH LADY THAT’S THE IRONY!!!!!!! LOL! EXCEPT YOU ARE A HUGE HYPOCRITE! I dont think we should ban religion. I think religion has caused the most problems with societies and allowed the worst atrocities, but that’s just fact speaking, not my heart. Let people believe anything they want, anything they claim to have felt, seen, or had in a delusion, I dont care. Just as long as they don’t force it on me through legislation or my tax dollars.
Good luck with your baby otherwise. make sure you get him/her baptized soon, wouldn’t want to take the chance of limbo… Ooo scratch that, they cancelled limbo a few months back.. You’ve got some time!
Lol later lady!!!
Comment posted November 30th, 2006 at 10:57 am
John says:
Lauren said: “Grrrr… nothing makes me more angry after I’ve sat through two semesters of Conlaw, studied it at Princeton and Georgetown and hear someone say “so-called” separation.”
Lauren,
Please spare us the elitism.
(While you were at Princeton, you apparently never had the chance to study Con Law under Robert George.)
Comment posted November 30th, 2006 at 11:50 am
mary kay says:
John,
I especially love this line:
“But his self-imposed dress code has another purpose, as well: to encourage civility. In a course that requires students to think through their approach to controversial topics like abortion and affirmative action – for starters – George says he wants “to set an elevated tone, because we are discussing divisive and emotionally engaging issues.”
The ability to converse, argue and debate without resorting to name calling, disparaging, vulgarity and dignity is an “art”.
Everything that is said does not have to be politically correct, but it SHOULD be dignified and respectful. Perhaps we should all put on 3 piece suits before we blog on here….just a thought.
MK
Comment posted November 30th, 2006 at 11:59 am
John says:
Lauren said: “I’m against displays of ANY religion on government property. There is a huge difference between public displays and taxpayer-supported displays.
Lauren,
FYI – The Nativity scene in Daley Plaza is not “taxpayer-supported”; it’s owned by private citizens who set it up on their own time after receiving a permit from the city to do so.
Comment posted November 30th, 2006 at 12:07 pm
lauren says:
John, the land is taxpayer funded is it not?
Comment posted November 30th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
lauren says:
i read that article you posted. I read the first few parts in detail and skimmed the rest. I did a find on separation in the document and couldn’t find it anywhere. If you’re questioning whether or not the constitution inherently has a right to privacy in it, sadly we’re probably on the same page there. I dont think the constitution has the right to privacy and hence therein holds no right to abortion. Yet, I defend it because it’s something I believe should be in there. Look you’re talking to a moderately pro-choice person and I’m telling you I don’t think that the constituation has privacy in it. That’s a pretty big statement wouldn’t you say?
However, the constitution does inherently have from an originalist’s point of view and a living document point of view the separation. I found nowhere in that article where that professor disagrees with that notion. Unless of course I missed something in my skimming of the last part.. I’ll read in more detail later, I”m working on a project for my options course
Comment posted November 30th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
lauren says:
OK John, I loved what you posted. Please post more things like that.. I like those sorts of debates.
“While he is opposed to officially sponsored prayer in public schools, he says, schools should not bar religious organizations from using their facilities when they are available for political groups and student clubs. “I agree with President Clinton that our schools should not be religion-free zones,” he says.”
That’s exactly what precedent and the actual constitution should be… I hear people get all up in arms about the Supreme Court Case about the football team in Texas who was praying and were told to stop. That’s all that is mentioned when you hear it on the news.. They were told to stop because they were doing it over the school-funded loudspeaker, not because they were praying. As long as prayer is not school-sanctioned, there is nothing wrong with it. In fact, I think it’s awesome when you see schoolchildren praying at their lunchtables. You don’t see it too often, but you do see it. Weirdly enough in my young age, you’d sometimes catch me doing it
. Are you familiar with the Lemon standards?
1. The government’s action must have a legitimate secular purpose;
2. The government’s action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government’s action must not result in an “excessive entanglement” with religion.
I personalyl feel it’s a little unnecessary to have a nativity scene on public property ever, but that’s just me. You’re allowed to preach and hold your nativity scene on public property, you just can’t leave it there and expect the city to maintain and hold it. Especially because it now appears that the display is government-sanctioned. It’s the same if Hindu religion had some religious display setup and let’s say their holiday season lasts 6 months.. Where do you draw the line?
Some people see Separation as hostile to religion, which always seems to baffle me. The first lense I learned Separation in was through religion being protected from government. That’s why I dont agree with tax monies given to religious charities. Here’s my reasons:
1. Once the money is given to religious charities they are now under federal regulation. the reason private charities work so well is because honestly they aren’t under the government’s control
2. So let’s say St. Anthony’s (my old parish in Frankfort) receives 10 dollars from the collection and then 10 dollars from the government. If they didn’t get the 10 dollars before they would’ve spent it on the charity. But now since they got the 10 dollars, they’ll take the 10 dollars from the collection and spend it on let’s say new Bibles. The 10 dollars from the government now goes to the charity. This is obviously too fine of a line to be walking on
3. Disbursement. Who gets what? Should we give to every charity? Or only the Christian ones? How do you decide who is worthy and who is not?
4. Who polices these charities to make sure they are used explicity for charity-work and not for evangelizing?
5. If a charity is caught evangelizing with government money, what then? What recourse does the government have? How is the religious organization protected?
As you can see this is just not a good idea. It’s too dangerous and it’s the same reason I disagree with school vouchers for parochial schools.
Comment posted November 30th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
Mike says:
Beautiful moving nativity screen saver (free)
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=121708
Mike
Comment posted November 30th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
John says:
Lauren said: “John, the land is taxpayer funded is it not?”
Lauren,
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here.
Certainly, Daley Plaza, as with all public land, is taxpayer-funded.
But if you’re going to use that fact to justify your claim that you are “against displays of ANY religion on government property”, it would seem that you would also have to call for the prohibition of, say, street preaching, or religious literature distribution (e. g., Jehovah’s Witnesses passing out copies of Watchtower) on public land as well.
The street preacher, the Jehovah’s Witness distributing Watchtower, and the citizens setting up a Nativity scene — after securing a disply permit — are all well within their constitutional rights to do their thing, if you will, on public land, just as anti-war activists, animal rights supporters, and political demonstrators are permitted to as well.
Comment posted December 1st, 2006 at 10:05 am
John says:
Lauren said: “1. Once the money is given to religious charities they are now under federal regulation. the reason private charities work so well is because honestly they aren’t under the government’s control…
“As you can see this is just not a good idea. It’s too dangerous and it’s the same reason I disagree with school vouchers for parochial schools.”
Lauren,
I haven’t made up my mind on the issue of school vouchers. It seems to me there are good arguments on both sides of the issue, including the first one you made, which I cited above.
At one of the Catholic high schools (it’s now closed) where I used to teach, the school received a federal grant that allowed the school to hire a teacher from Sylvan Learning Centers to come into the school three days a week and offer individualized instruction to a handful of students.
Here’s the part that troubled me: as a condition of receiving the federal grant, the school was required to remove the Crucifix and all other religious iconography from the Sylvan teacher’s classroom.
As I said, I’m of two minds when it comes to school vouchers. Some issues are cut and dried, but I don’t think one is. On the contrary, I think both sides in this debate have a tendency to oversimplify it.
Comment posted December 1st, 2006 at 10:24 am
Lauren says:
“But if you’re going to use that fact to justify your claim that you are “against displays of ANY religion on government property”, it would seem that you would also have to call for the prohibition of, say, street preaching, or religious literature distribution (e. g., Jehovah’s Witnesses passing out copies of Watchtower) on public land as well. ”
It’s a very, very fine line John. Setting up a permanent (moderately temporary) fixture on public land is different from preaching upon it. I think if someone sat with the nativity scene 24 hours a day and used it as a piece to their preaching, they’d probably get away with it. It’d be a really interesting case in court and I’d love to see it. To be honest, I’d think the city would lose. If left alone and set up as a fixture, I do think the city would win. The line has to be drawn, and I think the city of Chicago probably made the right choice.
I agree with you on oversimplification. My mom works with developing curriculum for some of the Catholic schools and she tells me that some of the Catholic schools just aren’t equipped to deal with learning disabilities, which is perfectly understandable as to why they would receive grant money for a Sylvan instructor. I think if the crucifixes have to be taken down, it’s a fair trade for a child’s enrichment. It seems a little ridiculous yes, I agree, but I think it’s better to be careful.
In terms of school vouchers it seems good in practice, let those children who aren’t receiving a good education at their public school transfer to a school that will give them a quality education. I personally believe there is a better way to solve this problem. Stop funding schools based on property taxes. The inequities in the public school system are tragic and horribly wrong. I went to LWay East where we had a swimming pool, astro turf on our football field, immaculately clean classrooms and facilities, great underpaid teachers, and overpaid administrators. Down the street from where I used to live in Chicago there were unclean bathrooms, teachers who could barely read themselves, and a small dilapidated playground. It’s wrong that children get an education based upon their parents’ wealth.
I think the Catholic school system does a lot to try to fix that inequity by offering scholarships and grants to poor children, but they simply cannot alleviate the unfortunate burden many of these children will face throughout their lifetime. If anyone needs a hand up in society. The thing is too, we end up surprised when children in these communities stay in these communities. We act as though they want to be there. These kids have had the worst of everything, poverty, hunger, surrounded by crime, and often times less than stellar parents. Then we get mad at them for not participating in a school that doesn’t invest in them.
So, I face the difficulty of looking like a real curmudgeon if I say no school voucher for you because it funds religion! If I believe in my heart of hearts that Bush and his cronies really cared about these children, I might be willing to look past the voucher entanglement issues. However, I see the voucher move as less of a concern for the children and more of a concern to overjoy a base of zealous Christians eager for money. If Bush really cared about this segment of the population, we certainly wouldn’t have seen the unreal images of Katrina and nor would we see Bush’s outrageous moves to further push the middle class into sections of poverty. Hmm.. it certainly doesnt have a hard and fast answer.
Comment posted December 1st, 2006 at 11:56 am
Christine says:
“Are you guys aware of the separation of church and state? I mean that hasn’t even come up once! Why should public dollars fund a very much religious scene!? It shouldn’t! I dont want my tax dollars paying for it! It’s ridiculous!!! I have no problem if you want to go stand in the public place and preach to your heart’s desire, but please dont make my money fund your religion!!!!!!”
Well, if that’s the way you feel then do you also protest Christmas vacation, holiday bonus and Easter vacation?
Where are the protesters who rip-up their Christmas bonus? Why aren’t you guys protesting to work when you’re only allowed the time off because of the religious rights of employees and employers?
This is another case of wanting ones cake and eating it too
Comment posted December 1st, 2006 at 1:39 pm
lauren says:
Christine, relax. Many holidays that are non-Christian revolve around this time. Not to mention, December was not even when jesus was actually born. ALSO on top of that there’s this one holiday that revolves around the 1st of the year, which also coincides with the end of the fiscal year. Bonuses occur at the time to provide for tax favorable savings.
I have Easter vacation because I go to a Catholic school. Most people go to Cancun or other destinations that just say Christian behavior all over them. I had Spring Break when I was in high school that didn’t always coincide with Easter. In fact, my mom told me that my spring break this year, although correct me if im wrong, is at the beginning of March which doesnt at all coincide with Easter.
Why is it that only right-wing Christians are the only ones allowed to get sentimental towards this time of the year? Oh that’s right, you’re not! Last I checked but my paycheck didn’t have Jesus printed on the front of it .
“Why aren’t you guys protesting to work when you’re only allowed the time off because of the religious rights of employees and employers?”
That question doesn’t even make any sense, so I won’t dignify it with a response.
I’m not entirely sure how me having a much needed break from the semester causes me to a. have cake or b. eat it. Last I checked the pope didnt sanction my days off of school and work. My boss and my school did. I dont think jesus existed to make sure we’d get a few days off of school. if this is what christmas means to you, that’s messed up
Comment posted December 1st, 2006 at 4:04 pm
Pansy Moss says:
You’re going into Labor?….I’m too excited. Isn’t that what this whole sight is about? Forget everything else people. We’re gonna have a baby!!!!!
No, I did’nt go into labor. I am kind of glad because I am not quite ready.
I was having false labor. The baby dropped (which in grand multi para happens more last minute that a few weeks before), and a few other “female” symptoms.
I am hoping the baby comes on Dec. 6 because not only is that the Feast of St. Nicholas, but it is my b’day…
Here is the link to the poem you liked, penned by Bob the Ape:
Bishop Bo Peep
Comment posted December 1st, 2006 at 4:21 pm
Pansy Moss says:
BLACK PEOPLE HAVE A GREAT LITTLE SAYING!?!??!?! AND IIIIIIIIIIIIIIII am being prejudiced!? OMG! LADY!!!!!!! I dont even know what to say to this! Not to mention you put it in slang dialect that many of my African American friends would find VERY degrading!
ROFLOL, and you would know! Oh Mighty Expert of what? What we black people find degrading? James Brown coined the phrase before I did. So since you told me I will find the saying degrading, perhaps I should take it up with the Godfather of Soul. I don’t know, I grew up black, always lived around black, went to a Historically Black school; last time I checked quoting James Brown was not a huge offense to us.
BTW, I keep no friends in my repoitoire that use me as their token black friend to show others how politically correct they are so they can say “I have a black friend. See, I’m not prejudice!” That is racism.
As a matter of fact, my husband and I always have a running joke that when you are confronted by racism, and you call the person out, the very, very first thing that say is “I’m not racist! I have black friends!” A lot like : …many of my African American friends…
Anyway, I will go back to blowing you off.
Comment posted December 1st, 2006 at 5:47 pm
mary kay says:
Pansy,
I had terrible braxton-hicks with my 5th and 6th. I usually hold off going to the hospital until I’m dilated 7 or 8, but with no. 5 I actually went in and got sent home. Talk about humiliating. But knowing how fast they come with each progressive child…well, you just can’t take any chances. Thank God the water broke with no. 6, cuz the braxton-hicks were often worse than the real contractions. A nurse told me that whenever I started having contractions that I should drink 8-16 ounces of liquid. If they stopped they were braxtons, if they didn’t it was probably real labor. Sure enough, it worked every time.
I’ll be praying for you – safe delivery and all – and if he is born on the 6th you’ll have to name him Nick(or Nicole if he’s a she.)
BTW- I don’t care if it was a black person, white person or golden retriever who said it, “don’t start none, won’t be none” was brilliant! (I don’t have any black friends by the way. Except you.
But if I did, I wouldn’t call them “My black friends” or my “African American friends”. I’d just call them “my friends”.
MK
Comment posted December 1st, 2006 at 10:55 pm
Rosie says:
What do braxton- hicks feel like? I wonder if that is what i’ve been feeling. It only seems to happen if I make sudden movements or if I sneeze. It feels kinda like a charlie-horse, and I can usually massage it away. Anyway, it’s new to me.
Comment posted December 1st, 2006 at 11:05 pm
mary kay says:
Rosie,
Braxton-hicks feel just like contractions. Actually, they ARE contraction. They’re just contractions that are useless, or at the very least, not useful. My actual labor pains are relatively mild, (up until transistion), but the braxton-hicks often had me bent over with tears in my eyes. Go figure. What you’re feeling sounds more like muscle spasms. I had those too. They’re nothing to worry about. Just another way for your body to torture you as you get closer to the big day. Do you guys have the heartburn from hell?
Every single complaint and grieveance is worth it tho. And soon forgotten after you are holding jr. Blame Eve. When I see her, I’m going to give her a piece of my mind!
MK
Comment posted December 2nd, 2006 at 6:25 am
Rosie says:
MK,
I just looked it up and apparently it is round ligament pain, it feels like someone has stuck a knife in me when it happens, oh well, i’ll deal. I only get heartburn when I take the cod liver oil that i’m supposed to, which is everyday this month, but they say this is a time of rapid brain growth so i’ll deal with it. (23 weeks today!!!) I’m actually getting excited instead of paranoid! This baby is very active. Poor Eve, i’m sure she’ll be getting a lot of grief.
Comment posted December 2nd, 2006 at 10:10 am
Christine says:
“Christine, relax. Many holidays that are non-Christian revolve around this time. Not to mention, December was not even when jesus was actually born. ALSO on top of that there’s this one holiday that revolves around the 1st of the year, which also coincides with the end of the fiscal year. Bonuses occur at the time to provide for tax favorable savings. ”
“I didn’t say anything about Christianity
In fact, I do realize that there are other religious holidays that take place around the same time, that being Hanukkah and kwanzaa (though kwanzaa is not religious)
The thing is, people don’t get ticked at the fact that most employers still refer to the bonus as a “Christmas” bonus, so in protest why do they accept them?
“I have Easter vacation because I go to a Catholic school. Most people go to Cancun or other destinations that just say Christian behavior all over them. I had Spring Break when I was in high school that didn’t always coincide with Easter. In fact, my mom told me that my spring break this year, although correct me if im wrong, is at the beginning of March which doesnt at all coincide with Easter.”
I don’t know how it works where you’re from (I’m in Canada) but the Easter holiday does not coincide with spring break. Good Friday and the following Monday are holidays, even in public schools.
Our spring breaks are always in March.
“Why is it that only right-wing Christians are the only ones allowed to get sentimental towards this time of the year? Oh that’s right, you’re not! Last I checked but my paycheck didn’t have Jesus printed on the front of it .”
Again, when did I specify a religion in my original post? : )
However, unless you’re a Christian, Jewish or a pagan, there is no specific reason to celebrate around the Holiday season. No one said you couldn’t, but that will not warrant a government holiday, you get the holiday because of religious people’s rights whether you want to accept that or not.
“I’m not entirely sure how me having a much needed break from the semester causes me to a. have cake or b. eat it. Last I checked the pope didnt sanction my days off of school and work. My boss and my school did. I dont think jesus existed to make sure we’d get a few days off of school. if this is what christmas means to you, that’s messed up”
Your boss and your school are required to sanction time off at that time of year because of the religious rights of students and employees. Of course, some work places still require employees to attend work during that time but not schools and several other government run places.
The reason for me stating that you want your cake and eat it too is because, like many militant anti-religious people, you don’t want to see religion seen anywhere or spoken in public but you have no problem reaping in the benefits that it has given you, that being specified holidays, gifts and pay check bonuses
Comment posted December 2nd, 2006 at 3:17 pm
Pansy Moss says:
Rosie,
How far along are you now?
I have horrible round ligament pain. They increase with each pregnancy. Braxton Hicks come more in the third trimester. It is basically your belly tightening up.
But if I did, I wouldn’t call them “My black friends” or my “African American friends”. I’d just call them “my friends”.
Yep! Bingo!
Comment posted December 2nd, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Rosie says:
Pansy,
I am 23 weeks today!! The first time I had ligament pain it was really scary, nobody told me about it. Do they increase in frequency or in pain intensity with each pregnancy? Do the braxton-hicks you get hurt? I read they hurt some women and not others.
MK,
Also papaya helps a lot with the heartburn.
Comment posted December 2nd, 2006 at 9:51 pm
D says:
If you haven’t already, give yourself a gift of a more meaningful Christmas.
I went to see The Nativity Story last night, opening night. As a recently baptized Christian, I will tell you that this was a most welcomed, meaningful and revolutionary movie for me. It centers around the mother of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
A superbly crafted and thoughtfully directed movie, it deserves a high rating. It is an unprecedented tribute to a woman who has been relegated to backdrop scenes. Finally, Mary gets to have a movie about her spiritual journey. In my own life, Mary was in the far distant background, giving her fleeting thought if I came across a Nativity scene at Christmas or if I heard the Beatles song, “Let It Be”:
“When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be. And in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be.”
It was made for a certain niche — the ~200 million or so Americans who consider themselves Christians. Two years ago, I was not in this niche, being “spiritual, but not religious.” Long story, short, it was Mary who pointed me to her Son, lead me on my own spiritual journey and caused a revolution in my heart, mind and soul.
Those who take the time to learn about her and her role do not, as I was mislead to believe, worship her. They simply respect and venerate her. Leading folks to her Son, as I learned, is her job. In this movie, her character is doing exactly that again for me and viewers who are called to see it.
Ever since she lead me home, Christmas has taken on such meaning as I never imagined. This year, I’ve started the season — called the Advent season — with a faith-based movie that allowed me to slide right into it in a beautiful, gentle and do I dare say, beatific way.
This movie experience is an exquisite gift for the heart and soul. Moreover, it is a feast for the eyes. I went past the inanimate objects of Nativity displays to a visually rich and “fleshed” out Mary, Joseph, Baby Jesus, shepherds, Magi and stable animals. The director of the movie, Catherine Hardwick, referred to a line in the script: “…the greatest of kings born in the most humble of places.”
“Power,” she says, “is not a physical power. It’s not riches, it’s not money, it’s not control of governments and nations. It’s a deeper power, spirituality.”
At the end of the movie, the audience burst out in spontaneous applause. For each of us, Christmas is not at all about holiday parties, frenzied shopping and the trappings and physical accouterments. Now, THAT’S revolutionary.
When this comes out in DVD, it will be a part of our yearly Christmas tradition, reminding us what it is all about.
“Merry Christ-mas!” I hope you will make it meaningfully merrier by giving yourself this movie experience of the life of Mary.
Comment posted December 2nd, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Pansy Moss says:
Rosie,
I always had round ligament pain, but until baby # 5, they were more annoying than painful. Then last pregnancy, I had the “hot poker” feeling and I thought something was wrong. I found out what it was. I still get them very often, but at least I know it is nothing bad going on.
Comment posted December 3rd, 2006 at 1:06 am
Rosie says:
Pansy,
Yes, that’s what it feels like, a hot poker!!
Comment posted December 3rd, 2006 at 11:36 am
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Comment posted December 20th, 2006 at 4:45 pm